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By Ixa
#9724
Every time I speak to a theist devil about the existence of God, the discussion quickly turns out to be, on the part of the theist, not a defence of God's alleged existence, but on the contrary an attack: an attack frequently on Atheism, and equally frequently on Atheists; and, on my part, the discussion turns out to be a needlessly lengthy one on the definition of the word "Atheism". There can never be progress until the theist devils admit that their arguments are based upon a false definition of the word "Atheism", a word which can be easily comprehended and correctly employed if they only had the mental capacity to infer from the simple definition of the prefix "-a" in the word "Atheism" a lack of belief in Deity.

Utterly destroyed! Wellnigh every single argument, utterly destroyed by the correct definition. Only when the theist devils accept the true definition of atheism shall they know that they cannot possibly win; they shall therefore refuse to accept it; they shall defend themselves by saying, "You are being pedantic", or "It is only a word. Let us not reduce this to a discussion of mere words.". However, discussion is futile when both sides are in disagreement with regards to the definition of the word which is the subject of the discussion, that is, in this case, "atheism". (The subject, by the way, is almost invariably turned into a discussion of atheism when it was originally a discussion on Deity's existence.).

It is absolutely pointless, therefore, to speak to theists when they refuse to accept the fact that Atheism is not a belief. Try forcing with all your might the meaning of Atheism a thousand times into the cranium of a single theist: it will always burst out his ears. He will refuse to accept it in every case: he will gouge out his eyes, stab pencils into his ears -- so as to be unable to hear or see the definition -- before he will accept it; he will hang himself before he will accept it; he knows in his kidney that he is wrong if he accepts it. (Actually, he is wrong to begin with, for he has not the correct definition of Atheism in the first place.)
By Proctor
#9732
Yeah, alright Supernius. We're not that bad.

But, if atheism is not a belief, then what you said in the argumnets for gods nonexistence thread, about God not being able to know everything, because he can't be an atheist is cancelled out. How can you be something that isn't even a belief?

[edit]Fixed up a stupid mistake.
Last edited by Proctor on 11 May 2003 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
By Ixa
#9736
Proctor wrote:Yeah, alright Demosthenes. We're not that bad.



Firstly, for the simpletons here: Atheism is a lack of belief in God. Someone who says "I don't know of there is a God" is an atheist, because he would not believe in God. Someone who says "I don't believe in God" is an atheist, for he, too, would lack a belief in God. Someone who says "There is no God" is also an atheist, for he would also lack a belief in God.

Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a world-view. Atheism is not the belief "that there is no God"; atheism is no belief it all.

"-A" means "lacking" or "without". "Theism" means "belief in God". An atheist, therefore, is one who lacks a belief in God.

All agnostics are atheists. Some atheists are agnostics. We must, therefore, distinguish between two breeds of atheism, namely, the belief "that there is no God", and the lack of belief in God. Some call the man who believes "that there is no God" a "strong atheist", and the man who only lacks a belief in God, and who does not believe "that there is no God" a "weak atheist".

This is obvious.
But, if atheism is not a belief, then what you said in the argumnets for gods nonexistence thread, about God not being able to know everything, because he can't be an atheist is cancelled out. How can you be something that isn't even a belief?


He does not have the power to lack a belief in God, i.e. Himself. He cannot be an atheist.
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By Noumenon
#10121
belief - persuasion of the truth of anything.

If you think that it is true that there is no God, you believe it. Atheism is therefore a belief. If atheism were not a belief, then atheists wouldn't believe in it. How can an atheist not believe in atheism?
By Ixa
#10170
IsildurXI wrote:belief - persuasion of the truth of anything.

If you think that it is true that there is no God, you believe it.


Wrong! I have already dealt with this hereinabove.

AGAIN, I do not believe "that there is no God"; AGAIN, I merely lack a belief in God! Why is that so difficult to understand among theists? I do not, AGAIN, think that it is true that "there is no God". I do not know! therefore I do not BELIEVE. I LACK a belief in God. If someone asks me, "Do you believe in God[/i]", I will say "no", because I lack a belief in God!

Atheism is therefore a belief. If atheism were not a belief, then atheists wouldn't believe in it. How can an atheist not believe in atheism?


ATHEISM is not a belief. You cannot believe in something that is not a belief! An atheist believes that the word "atheism" exists. But he does not NECESSARILY believe that "there is no God". He is an atheist because he lacks a belief in God. he cannot "believe" in atheism because "atheism" is not a belief to begin with! Even if he beleives THAT THERE IS NO GOD, he cannot "believe" in atheism, because atheism is not a belief (or belief system) like, say, Christianity or Marxism.

Ants do not believe in God! If an ant could talk, and you asked him "Do you believe in God", he could not respond because he is too stupid to understand the "God" idea. Ants lack a belief in God, and probably everything else. They do not believe in God; therefore they are ATHEISTS! But do they know what atheism is? No. That is because atheism is not a belief; you can call anything that lacks a belief in God an atheist -- like, say, a baby (babies do not believe in God), or the the man that says "There is no God"; for they all lack a belief in God.
By Proctor
#10179
Let me get this right. Its not that you're certain that God doesn't exist, but you're prepared to flame anyone who belongs to any religion to your hearts content, including, but not limited to, "theist devils", which is a fairly religious name to call anyone isn't it? After all, how can there be a devil if there isn't a God?
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By Noumenon
#10222
The only way atheism is not a belief is if it is weak atheism, which is more like agnosticism. So in that case, you wouldn't believe either way whether the is a God or not. There are "strong" athesists that believe for certain that there is no God, so I would call that a belief.
By Ixa
#10226
IsildurXI wrote:The only way atheism is not a belief is if it is weak atheism, which is more like agnosticism. So in that case, you wouldn't believe either way whether the is a God or not. There are "strong" athesists that believe for certain that there is no God, so I would call that a belief.


But Atheism is not a belief. Sure, there may be Atheists who believe in many things, such as that "God" is unreal, but Atheism itself is no belief.
By Tam
#10271
Ya know supernius, I'm not entirely sure its as strraight forward as you would like it to be.

atheism, came from greek atheos. Here we have no 'ism', no belief. The 'a' is the negation of theos, theos being god, thus atheos is 'without God'. Extend this simple statement to atheism and we have not no belief in god, but a belief in no God

You are putting the negation on the predicate, when it correctly applies to the OBJECT.

So yeah atheism is a belief in the absence of God. ;)
By Ixa
#10297
Tam wrote:Ya know supernius, I'm not entirely sure its as strraight forward as you would like it to be.

atheism, came from greek atheos. Here we have no 'ism', no belief. The 'a' is the negation of theos, theos being god, thus atheos is 'without God'. Extend this simple statement to atheism and we have not no belief in god, but a belief in no God

You are putting the negation on the predicate, when it correctly applies to the OBJECT.

So yeah atheism is a belief in the absence of God. ;)



No it isn't. You have it all wrong. 90% of atheists would disagree with you here. Theism is "belief in god". "A" means without. Therefore A-theism means without (belief in God).

So shut your face; you are WRONG.
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By Ymir
#10304
I am an atheist and I agree with Supernius. I have a lack of belief, I am not defined by atheism, I was not raised to believe in this being so I have always lacked a belief. I only was able to define myself as atheist when I heard it sometime.
By Tam
#10305
"No it isn't. You have it all wrong. 90% of atheists would disagree with you here. Theism is "belief in god". "A" means without. Therefore A-theism means without (belief in God).

So shut your face; you are WRONG."


Haha. So atheists get to decide what atheism means do they? When it suits their purpose to have a cop out they can just claim the absence of belief, yet when they want to show they dont think there is a God they can use that also.

You have to understand that atheism comes not from a-theism but from atheos, meaning WITHOUT GOD. the ism, makes it into a belief.

Thus if you wish to confine yourself to its ancient greek origins it truely comes from a denial of Gods existence. If you read certain parts of ancient greek literature you would see it as such now.

That 90% of atheists would disagree with me is neither here nor there. They ahve either taken it upon themselves to change the meaning, or they have been sucked in by folk like you.

Ymir "I am an atheist and I agree with Supernius. I have a lack of belief, I am not defined by atheism, I was not raised to believe in this being so I have always lacked a belief. I only was able to define myself as atheist when I heard it sometime."

I should more closely associate you with agnosticism in that case, or a changed form of the word atheist. But it must still be noted atheism has its origins being a belief in Gods absence, not an absence of belief in God
By Ixa
#10310
What you are missing, Tam, is that if you do not believe in God, not necessarily if you believe that there is no God, you would be considered an Atheist. I do not believe in God. Am I not therefore an Atheist? Ymir does not believe in God. Is he not therefore an Atheist.

As for the rest of your "argument", I shall deal with it shortly.
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By Demosthenes
#10316
[lies]Hey Procter I am not Supernius! Supernius is not me! Supernius started this discussion. I haven't entered it...yet...[/lies]
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By jaakko
#10318
This is all very interesting.

-Theist is a person who believes in god.

-Atheist is a person who don't believe in god.

-Agnostic is a person who isn't sure about god's existence.

An agnostic can say:
"I lack belief in god." "I don't believe in God (but don't deny either)."
TO SAY SUCH DOESN'T MAKE ONE AN ATHEIST.

What differentiates an atheist from an agnostic, is that an atheist says:
"God doesn't exist." "I believe there is no God".
Atheism DENIES god. That equals to "belief that there is no god". Does that make atheism a religion? No. Saying "Earth is not flat" is a belief too. Saying "I exist" is a belief too.

What I'm trying to say is: I don't see what's the problem! If someone says Atheism is a belief, you don't have to deny that. Except of course, if you want atheism to include the possibility of the existence of god.
By Ixa
#10330
Jaakko wrote:This is all very interesting.

-Theist is a person who believes in god.

-Atheist is a person who don't believe in god.

-Agnostic is a person who isn't sure about god's existence.

An agnostic can say:
"I lack belief in god." "I don't believe in God (but don't deny either)."
TO SAY SUCH DOESN'T MAKE ONE AN ATHEIST.

What differentiates an atheist from an agnostic, is that an atheist says:
"God doesn't exist." "I believe there is no God".
Atheism DENIES god. That equals to "belief that there is no god". Does that make atheism a religion? No. Saying "Earth is not flat" is a belief too. Saying "I exist" is a belief too.

What I'm trying to say is: I don't see what's the problem! If someone says Atheism is a belief, you don't have to deny that. Except of course, if you want atheism to include the possibility of the existence of god.


You are confused. Atheism itself is not a belief, but an Atheist can -- and that is the key word here -- an Atheist can believe that there is no God, but that is not what makes him an Atheist; the fact that he lacks a belief in God -- I repeat, lacks a belief -- makes him an Atheist. Any person, any beast, any object that does not believe in God is an Atheist. This is because Atheism is not a belief--therefore, by definition a Fork can even be an Atheist.
No belief involved in Atheism whatever, sorry. Almost everything in the universe is an atheist. Atheism existed before theism because, for unlike theism, Atheism is not a belief, and beliefs come after non-beliefs.
By Ixa
#10331
atheists do not necessarily say "God does not exist" you confused little boy. Now go shut your face before you further offend me.
By Tam
#10391
I'm inclined to agree with jaakko here.

Note first it was YOU who descended into determining the meaning of atheism from its very first greek roots. Now I have shown the word atheism is not a negation of the english theism, it is a direct translation of atheos, long since in use in ancient greece and meaning lacking God.

so atheism is a belief in the absence of God.

"What you are missing, Tam, is that if you do not believe in God, not necessarily if you believe that there is no God, you would be considered an Atheist. I do not believe in God. Am I not therefore an Atheist? Ymir does not believe in God. Is he not therefore an Atheist.

As for the rest of your "argument", I shall deal with it shortly."


No you are not an athiest. If you have no belief whatsoever as to whether or not there exists a God then it stands to reason that you will have no knowledge on this matter, for if you KNEW there was/was not a God you would certainly have a belief in the matter. Thus if not beleiving gives us not knowing, you thus become an Agnostic my good man. Welcome to the club! If however you do not believe in God AND believe there is no God, then yes you are indeed an atheist.
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By Big Brother
#10395
Supernius wrote:atheists do not necessarily say "God does not exist" you confused little boy. Now go shut your face before you further offend me.


Easy there mate, perhaps you should play some relaxing music or whatever you do to relax. But do not take out your frustrations by telling other forum memebers to 'shut their face'.

Thank you.
By Ixa
#10409
Here is how the OED defines atheism:

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.


deny:

To contradict or gainsay (anything stated or alleged); to declare to be untrue or untenable, or not what it is stated to be.
Logic. The opposite of affirm; to assert the contradictory of (a proposition).
To refuse to admit the truth of (a doctrine or tenet); to reject as untrue or unfounded; the opposite of assert or maintain.
To refuse to recognize or acknowledge (a person or thing) as having a certain character or certain claims; to disown, disavow, repudiate, renounce.


Note that the OED definition covers the whole spectrum of atheist belief, from weak atheism (those who do not believe in or credit the existence of one or more gods) to strong atheism (those who assert the contrary position, that a god does not exist).

atheism n 1 a: disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b: the doctrine that there is neither god nor any other deity - compare AGNOSTICISM 2: godlessness esp. in conduct

disbelief n: the act of disbelieving : mental refusal to accept (as a statement or proposition) as true

disbelieve vb vt : to hold not to be true or real : reject or withold belief in vi : to withold or reject belief


Note that again, both strong and weak atheism are included in the definition.

Atheist books
One might argue that the term "Jewish" should properly be defined by Jews, and that similarly the term "atheist" should be defined by atheists. So here are a few quotes from popular atheist books about atheism.
It turns out that the word atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism [...]

Basic atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief. There is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god -- both are atheistic, though popular usage has ignored the latter [...]

The word `atheism', however, has in this contention to be construed unusally. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of 'atheist' in English is 'someone who asserts there is no such being as God,' I want the word to be understood not positively but negatively. I want the originally Greek prefix 'a' to be read in the same way in 'atheist' as it customarily is read in such other Greco-English words as 'amoral,' 'atypical,' and 'asymmetrical'. In this interpretation an atheist becomes: someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels 'positive atheist' for the former and 'negative atheist' for the latter.
[Antony G.N. Flew, "God, Freedom, and Immortality: A Critical Analysis", p. 14.
Prometheus, 1984.]

If you look up 'atheism' in the dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there is no God. Certainly many people understand atheism in this way. Yet many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek 'a' means 'without' or 'not' and 'theos' means 'god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative veiew, characterized by the absence of belief in God.

[Michael Martin, "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", p. 463.
Temple University Press, 1990.]


Martin goes on to cite sveral other well-known non-theists in history who used or implied this definition of 'atheism', including Baron d'Holbach (1770), Richard Carlile (1826), Charles Southwell (1842), Charles Bradlaugh (1876), and Anne Besant (1877).
The average theologian (there are exceptions, of course) uses 'atheist' to mean a person who denies the existence of a God. Even an atheist would agree that some atheists (a small minority) would fit this definition. However, most atheists would stongly dispute the adequacy of this definition. Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God. The distiniction is small but important. Denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept. To be without a belief in God merely means that yhe term 'god' has no importance or possibly no meaning to you. Belief in God is not a factor in your life. Surely this is quite different from denying the existence of God. Atheism is not a belief as such. It is the lack of belief.

When we examine the components of the word 'atheism,' we can see this distinction more clearly. The word is made up of 'a-' and '-theism.' Theism, we will all agree, is a belief in a God or gods. The prefix 'a-' can mean 'not' (or 'no') or 'without.' If it means 'not,' then we have as an atheist someone who is not a theist (i.e., someone who does not have a belief in a God or gods). If it means 'without,' then an atheist is someone without theism, or without a belief in God.


http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn ... tions.html

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