[Monkey Angst]

I clicked on the link, and found nothing in it that would convince someone who was considering voting for Bush to do otherwise. While it is imperative that we change minds among the conservative populace, rhetoric and comparisons to Nazis are not going to do it. How about a website that breaks down all the objections to Bush's policies in clear, rational language? Is this too much to ask?

[QatzelOk]

I'm not sure if clear, rational language is working in America right now. Try catchy soundbites and trite stereotypes. Now you're speaking to America! Liberals? Saddam lovers! Conservatives? Corporate stooges. This is the new language of American politics. And it's as dumb as the leaders it gives us.

[clownboy]

I clicked on the link, and found nothing in it that would convince someone who was considering voting for Bush to do otherwise. While it is imperative that we change minds among the conservative populace, rhetoric and comparisons to Nazis are not going to do it. How about a website that breaks down all the objections to Bush's policies in clear, rational language? Is this too much to ask?

Never happen. What passes for liberals in this country cannot go for long without resorting to, "we're just intellectually and morally superior to you conservatives, so just go along with us". THAT is the only fact in their book and in their minds it's irrefutable.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

This is the new language of American politics. And it's as dumb as the leaders it gives us.

Son didn't you just finish saying you were Canadian?

What is this "us" shit you keep blathering on about?

It's OUR government. Go run your own.

[QatzelOk]

The leaders it gives the world are dumb. Bushes, Clinton, Reagan.... they tax other countries like Iraq, Nicaragua, and Haiti without offering these countries any representation. That's what I meant by 'us', the rest of the earth. Thanks for being a dumb-ass, slightly racist, superstitious TV watching people that votes for whoever makes you feel the warm and fuzziest as you watch CNN.

[Goranhammer]

Monkey's right. I know very much about Bush's policies, both at home and internationally. Does that mean by default I should hate him?

Perhaps what is important to me is not important to you, and vice versa.

Don't sit there and think that everyone in America or the world is like you. Some of us like to watch our own backs, keep what we earn, and live as safely as possible.

Do I want to see the entire world hungry? No.

Do I think it can be remedied? No.

Am I going out of my way to try, with all the futility of banging my head against a wall? No.

I see the point of nearly everyone in PoFo (Ixabert one of the few exceptions), and were I in your shoes, I'd be heavily inclined to debate for the same things you do.

The truth is that I'm not.

I'm older than the vast majority of the people in PoFo (except clownboy, Demo, and a couple others...who are also conservatives), and since I've worked my whole life AND am college educated, probably have a bit more than the teenagers of the place. Besides, if any of them had more than I do (say from a rich parent), their views would be an abomination to their parents, and be hypocritical for keeping all material possessions while saying everyone should do more for the poor...making their voice worthless in my eyes.

All in all, don't sit back and think that if EVERYONE knew the facts of Bush 100% that they'd all agree with you. Everyone is not you.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

The leaders it gives the world are dumb

Which brings us back to:

Why in the name of God would we elect a world friendly leader? I don't see anyone else electing one. We elect leaders to lead AMERICA, and protect AMERICAN interests. The rest of the world can go hang. Or please tell me how your last 3 PMs have been looking out for American interests. That should be interesting.

[QatzelOk]

It's called world citizenship. Look into it.

[Goranhammer]

Oh my God, that's just disturbing.

Let's all chase butterflies, and watch rainy days, and pick flowers, and play with puppy dogs, and follow U.N. blindly.

Idealism makes me vomit.

A leader for the whole world...

[clownboy]

It's called world citizenship. Look into it.

No thanks, not interested. I want Kofi as my leader even less than I want Kerry. I'm sure that if you don't have a pot to piss in, "world citizenship" might look attractive. To me - it's just another avenue for others into MY wallet.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

The only people world citizenship helps are non-Americans. Not even all of them. You can't get all European nations to agree on a European Union, and now you want to go full bore into WORLD citizenship?

Blow that for a game of soldiers.

[QatzelOk]

World citizenship is an inner rule. Not an outer tyrant. It is something that Americans used to promote as a way to world peace and environmental sanity. Now, it's only the 6 billion people outside of the US that would benefit, say your newspapers. Only the OTHER.

[Dark Canuck]

How can you neo cons look in the mirror anymore and not vomit?
How can you be so unabashedly selfish?

Is that what soldiers of WW2, our forfathers in many cases would want to hear from you? From all of us? Were they fighting for empire or to actually liberate Europe? You would hold up those men as heros, but deny thier purpose.

INstead you shout "ME ME ME!"

Fucking infants.

[Goranhammer]

Spoken like someone who has nothing.

The only people who complain about looking out for #1 are the ones who have less than #2.

[Dark Canuck]

I'm in Canada Goran, I have all i need, and materialy at least all I want. But i can look beyond myself and have empathy for the rest of the world.

You must be one selfish asshole to be so self centred on even an international level, girls must love that.

[Goranhammer]

I'm in Canada Goran, I have all i need, and materialy at least all I want.

Stab in the dark...15 years old. How close am I?

But i can look beyond myself and have empathy for the rest of the world.

I see. Because I want nice things in my life, I don't give a damn about anyone else, right?

I am educated, opportunistic, and not blinded by idealism. I am the antithesis of socialism.

You must be one selfish asshole to be so self centred on even an international level, girls must love that.

You would be too if you were me.

[clownboy]

How can you neo cons look in the mirror anymore and not vomit?
How can you be so unabashedly selfish?

Is that what soldiers of WW2, our forfathers in many cases would want to hear from you? From all of us? Were they fighting for empire or to actually liberate Europe? You would hold up those men as heros, but deny thier purpose.

INstead you shout "ME ME ME!"

Fucking infants.

Pot, kettle, black.

As for the soldiers you speak of, I know more than a few (are you on speaking terms with even ONE?). They fought because they were convinced our homeland was next on the block AND they thought it was the right thing to do. Had it been today, you and your ilk would have tried to convince them otherwise. Chamberlain would have been your leader.

[Dark Canuck]

I guess I'll just conclude yank neo cons are incappable of altruism. Since you keep arguing for that. And i guess yank soldiers never cared, took you 2 years to get into WW2 only after the japanese attacked you directly, while Canadians having a sense of duty and concern for the rest of the world went to war alongside Britain. For thier own nation, for Canada's father nation of Britain, for thier ancestral homelands of Europe, for simply beig the right thing to do, as Chamberlin was thrown away and spat on and Churchhill led the charge.

But the yanks, ok, your forfathers fought and died for SUVs and corporate oligarchy and thier own personal profit. Sure you salute that. So carry on that legacy of personal greed and unending ravenous consumption, I'm sure all veterans and founders and everyone who ever fought for your nation would praise you.

[clownboy]

Never answered the question - are you on speaking terms with any of the generation you spout nonsense about? And those Canadians who bravely went forward to help out in those two years - how the hell do you think they GOT THERE? Never heard of Lend/Lease? What, you think you had a developed Navy and Air Force at that point? I'm sure Hilter was shaking in his boots when he heard the Canadian calvary was on it's way.

Once again, I'm not denigrating the very brave Canadians who served. But there traits seem to have skipped your generation.