[Godstud]

Then find me independent corroborating evidence.

I don't see a reason not to believe her claim. That is what I think. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If there are no witnesses to it, I still believe it happened to her. Why are you so quick to dismiss violence against a woman? Is this simply to push your Trans agenda?

I specifically quoted the evidence to you showing that her claims have merit: banning these pro will lead to kids killings themselves.

And you ignore the evidence that suicide rate among people who transitioned was higher because it did not confirm your bias. I don't think that your claim has merit, despite the so-called "evidence".

I will post it yet again. I am sure you will dismiss it, as it does not confirm your bias...

Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.

Here’s how The Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility:

[The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility], which conducts reviews of health care treatments for the [National Health Service], concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favor of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counseling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time.

In a discussion of the largest and most robust study—the study from Sweden that McHugh mentioned in the quote above—the Obama Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services pointed out the 19-times-greater likelihood for death by suicide, and a host of other poor outcomes:

The study identified increased mortality and psychiatric hospitalization compared to the matched controls. The mortality was primarily due to completed suicides (19.1-fold greater than in control Swedes), but death due to neoplasm and cardiovascular disease was increased 2 to 2.5 times as well. We note, mortality from this patient population did not become apparent until after 10 years. The risk for psychiatric hospitalization was 2.8 times greater than in controls even after adjustment for prior psychiatric disease (18 percent). The risk for attempted suicide was greater in male-to-female patients regardless of the gender of the control. Further, we cannot exclude therapeutic interventions as a cause of the observed excess morbidity and mortality. The study, however, was not constructed to assess the impact of gender reassignment surgery per se.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

I already explained why she would lie (i.e, she makes money off marginalizing trans folk) and you agree that there is no corroborating evidence despite the fact that she was surrounded by cameras and security guards at the time.

And I believe it was @Fasces who pointed out that the Swedish study did not show that “the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers”.

Instead, that study showed the suicide rate was still 20 times higher than the general population, but still significantly lower than trans folk who had not received surgery.

I then posted another study that found the same result.

Would you like me to provide a link to that whole exchange?

[Godstud]

And I believe it was @Fasces who pointed out that the Swedish study did not show that “the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers”.

No. He didn't show anything to contradict that Swedish study.

Instead, that study showed the suicide rate was still 20 times higher than the general population, but still significantly lower than trans folk who had not received surgery.

Wrong. The study was wrong, too, as they are only twice as likely to do so, as normal people.

Do you know what peers, means? I doubt it.

Peer
one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status.

Transgender ideology is going to cause more suicides than it will save, as they groom children to their deviant lifestyle.

More grooming for the Trans agenda from those who have bought into the lies...

California Teachers Sue School District Over Policy of Hiding Children’s Gender Transition from Parents
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/cal ... %20parents.

California mother claims teachers manipulated her daughter to change her gender identity
https://nypost.com/2022/01/24/mother-su ... ansgender/

[AFAIK]

What exactly is a 'comparable peer'? Can you quote the section of the study where this term is defined so that we're all on the same page and can continue with the same understanding of the claim.

[Fasces]

I did. He didn't care.

viewtopic.php?p=15273240#p15273240

@Godstud read the study. You're right. I didn't contradict it... because you're the one misrepresenting its conclusions. The study doesn't prove what you want it to prove.

1) It studied transgendered individuals who transition in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s against a cohort of general population.

2) It specifically concludes that the study has no evidence that sexual reassignment surgery increases suicide.

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

It's comparing transgendered people with sex reassignment surgery to a randomized sample representing the general population, not other transgendered people who did not undergo sex reassignment surgery. The study doesn't even blame the surgery itself.

The poorer outcome in the present study might also be explained by longer follow-up period (median >10 years) compared to previous studies. In support of this notion, the survival curve (Figure 1) suggests increased mortality from ten years after sex reassignment and onwards. In accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.

Also suggests high suicide rate may be due to mental health comorbidity.

Mortality from suicide was strikingly high among sex-reassigned persons, also after adjustment for prior psychiatric morbidity. In line with this, sex-reassigned persons were at increased risk for suicide attempts. Previous reports [6], [8], [10], [11] suggest that transsexualism is a strong risk factor for suicide, also after sex reassignment, and our long-term findings support the need for continued psychiatric follow-up for persons at risk to prevent this.

Inpatient care for psychiatric disorders was significantly more common among sex-reassigned persons than among matched controls, both before and after sex reassignment. It is generally accepted that transsexuals have more psychiatric ill-health than the general population prior to the sex reassignment.[18], [21], [22], [33] It should therefore come as no surprise that studies have found high rates of depression,[9] and low quality of life[16], [25] also after sex reassignment. Notably, however, in this study the increased risk for psychiatric hospitalisation persisted even after adjusting for psychiatric hospitalisation prior to sex reassignment. This suggests that even though sex reassignment alleviates gender dysphoria, there is a need to identify and treat co-occurring psychiatric morbidity in transsexual persons not only before but also after sex reassignment.

On the question of whether sex reassignment surgery is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, the study says:

For the purpose of evaluating whether sex reassignment is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, it is reasonable to compare reported gender dysphoria pre and post treatment. Such studies have been conducted either prospectively[7], [12] or retrospectively,[5], [6], [9], [22], [25], [26], [29], [38] and suggest that sex reassignment of transsexual persons improves quality of life and gender dysphoria.

Finally, the study in big letters spells it out for everyone quite explicitly, except those being willfully blind to it.

the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0016885

[Fasces]

Either care about the science or don't, but stop claiming it concludes something it doesn't.

[Godstud]

Thing might have been worse...

Even in your explanation you notice that this study uses words like "might" and "could". That doesn't sound like much of a conclusion if I go by what you say, @Fasces.

Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare explains that the reason behind the rollback is that little is known about the effects of these treatments over the long term and "the risks outweigh the benefits currently". However, experts say those treatments were designed for exceptional cases in the first place.

In 2019, there were at least 13 minors who suffered from "serious side effects,” according to Swedish reports.

One of them had developed osteoporosis - a health condition that weakens bones - after taking puberty blockers. Others have suffered from liver damage, significant weight gain and depressive symptoms.

A Swedish paediatric endocrinologist, Ricard Nergårdh, recently told the country’s public broadcaster that the procedure teenagers with gender dysphoria go through was “chemical castration”.
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/1 ... st%20place.

So the country with the most history of this is stepping back. Hmmm...

[Fasces]

Even in your explanation you notice that this study uses words like "might" and "could".

This study does not demonstrate a causal relationship between gender reassignment surgery and suicide. If we want to be good scientists, we assume the null hypothesis in this case.

So the country with the most history of this is stepping back. Hmmm...

1. You are being disingenuous by arguing about two separate issues, and presenting them as a single issue. Sweden has revised its policies, for minors, not adults. The study is about adults, not minors.

2. I'm not sure anyone in this thread is advocating ignoring the medical advice of doctors (besides those in favor of outright banning the practice regardless of the medical advice of doctors), and not all gender affirming care for minors is medical in nature.

[Godstud]

If we want to be good scientists, we assume the null hypothesis in this case.

Ok. I will give you that one. So much is unknown, including the potential harm of gender reassignment. Do short-term benefits outweigh the longterm effects?

1. You are being disingenuous by arguing about two separate issues, and presenting them as a single issue. Sweden has revised its policies, for minors, not adults. The study is about adults, not minors.

Minors grow into adults. You know that, right? It would be disingenuous to not acknowledge that.

2. I'm not sure anyone in this thread is advocating ignoring the medical advice of doctors (besides those in favor of outright banning the practice regardless of the medical advice of doctors), and not all gender affirming care for minors is medical in nature.

I am for gender affirming care for minors that does not use surgery or drugs.

That doctors sometimes influence people is also a factor(links between trans activists and Big Pharma are well known), as well as MSM and social networks. There are now cases where they are finding more gender confusion because of people trying to fit in within their social circles, or where you have teachers or parents grooming children who are highly impressionable, with the Trans ideology.

I think it's more of a moral debate than a medical one. All this transition stuff( I believe) is really just medical experiments on children. There isn't enough research on the long-term effects and even short term effects.

[Fasces]

Minors grow into adults. You know that, right? It would be disingenuous to not acknowledge that.

Is this about kids taking hormone blockers during puberty, or not? You're waffling. Is Sweden reviewing its gender dysphoria policies for adults? Then don't attempt to pass off revising policies for minors as an overall stand on medical gender affirming care.

There are now cases where they are finding more gender confusion because of people trying to fit in within their social circles, or where you have teachers or parents grooming children who are highly impressionable, with the Trans ideology.

Sounds like outrage porn bunk to me.

I am for gender affirming care for minors that does not use surgery or drugs.

I don't see it as a moral debate, and I bet the doctors know more than me. If they say its safe, sure. If they say its not safe, sure.

There isn't enough research on the long-term effects and even short term effects.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I'm not a trained psychiatrist or doctor. I'll defer to their expertise.

Of course, experts can be wrong. I'll leave the decision about whether or not to trust a doctor's medical advice to that individual.

There isn't enough research on the long-term effects and even short term effects.

Sure, this sounds reasonable - but you're setting up a scenario in which "there is no research on the effects of this on children and we're making it de facto illegal to find out".

If a teenager entering puberty wants to pursue hormone blockers, and their doctors and psychiatrists both think it would benefit their mental health, and the parents, knowing the risks, are willing to consent... I don't see the point in banning the practice. It is no different than any other experimental medical procedure to treat cancer or ALD.

I don't see nearly the outrage at the Odone family for their own "medical experiments" on their child.

[AFAIK]

New Zealand banned the use of growth hormone blockers on children. They're mostly used by kids who are completely dependent on an adult to care for them and were used to make it easier for their carer to handle them. The ban decreased the quality of life for many disabled children because as they grew bigger it became harder for their carers to take them out of the house and so more and more activities became inaccessible to them.

The gov't pursued the ban because if, in a hypothetical future, we find a cure for down syndrome the people we cure would prefer to be full sized adults rather than stunted dwarfs.

I bring it up as an example of government interference overriding the individual decision making of doctors, patients and parents.