Who was the worst American president? - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Todd D.
#137990
Ice_Demon wrote:most IQ tests i see have a thing where you select your age, so I think that it does matter if your over 18.


You can think that, but with all due respect, you would be wrong. Age selection is little more than a gimmick they throw on internet tests to give it an air of legitimacy. Official IQ tests have no such adjustments.
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By Comrade Ogilvy
#138128
Excellent research! And thank you. Now let's see what Jefferson has to say (Carson).
How these checks and balances work, how each branch interpreting the Constitution for itself limits and restrains government, may best be illustrated with actual examples. When Jefferson became President, he pardoned those who had been convicted under the Sedition Act. He explained his action in letters to Abigail Adams: "I discharged every person under punishment or prosecution under the Sedition Law because I considered, and now consider, that law to be a nullity.... The judges, believing the law constitutional, had a right to pass a sentence of fine and imprisonment, because the power was placed in their hands by the Constitution. But the executive, believing the law to be unconstitutional, was bound to remit the execution of it, because that power has been confided to them by the Constitution. That instrument meant that its co-ordinate branches should be checks on one another." 19

Jefferson believed that each branch decided constitutional necessity for themselves where it cames to the actions that they themselves are responsible for.

(Emphasis modified.)

There is a huge difference between Jefferson and Jackson. Jefferson exercised a power which, as he wrote, was "confided to [him] by the Constitution." Jackson, however, broke treaties, violated a federal statute, subverted the Constitution, arrogated to himself the powers of a dictator, and killed thousands of people.

The Constitution gives the President the "Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." (U.S. Const., Art. II Sec. 2.) There are only three limits on that power: The President cannot grant pardons for State crimes, pardons in cases of impeachment, or pardons for crimes not yet committed. (See Ex parte Garland, 71 U.S. 333, 380 (1867).)

Other than that, the President can exercise the pardon power however he (or, perhaps someday, she) pleases. (See Hamilton, Federalist No. 74.) And he is not required to explain his reasons to anyone. (Contrast U.S. Const., Art. I Sec. 7 (when vetoing a bill, the President must "return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated").) So Jefferson's personal reasons for issuing pardons are immaterial: He had the constitutional power to grant pardons for any reason or for no reason at all.

But Jackson had no authority to violate the treaties with the Cherokee (or with the Choctaw or with the Muskogee, etc.). On the contrary, the Constitution makes treaties part of "the supreme Law of the Land," and it was Jackson's duty to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" (U.S. Const., Art. VI and Art. II Sec. 3).

And he violated federal law when he forced the Cherokee off of their land. Congress had not authorized any forcible removal. It had authorized Jackson only "to cause so much of any territory belonging to the United States, west of the river Mississippi, not included in any state or organized territory, and to which the Indian title has been extinguished, as he may judge necessary, to be divided into a suitable number of districts, for the reception of such tribes or nations of Indians as may choose to exchange the lands where they now reside, and remove there ...." (Indian Removal Act of 1830, 4 Stat. 411 (emphasis added); see also Oneida Indian Nation of New York v. City of Sherrill, 337 F.3d 139, 149 (2d Cir. 2003); Cobell v. Norton, 240 F.3d 1081, 1087 (D.C.Cir. 2001).)

And Congress had specifically provided that "nothing in this act contained shall be construed as authorizing or directing the violation of any existing treaty between the United States and any of the Indian Tribes." (Id.; see also U.S. v. Michigan, 417 F.Supp. 192, 260 (W.D.Mich. 1979), remanded on other grounds, 623 F.2d 448 (6th Cir. 1980), modified, 653 F.2d 277 (6th Cir. 1981). cert. denied, 454 U.S. 1124 (1981).) Thus, Congress had authorized only voluntary removal.

But Jackson took it upon himself to remove the Cherokee (and others) by force -- to violate treaties which the Supreme Court had held binding and which Congress had explicitly reaffirmed.[1] He usurped both the legislative power and the judicial power. He acted, in short, as an absolute monarch.

And that is a crucial distinction. Jefferson used the executive branch as a check on the legislative and judicial branches by wielding an aspect of the executive power conferred on him by the Constitution. But Jackson flouted the legislative and judicial branches as a check on the executive branch by usurping powers not conferred on him by the Constitution. Unsurprisingly, therefore, Jackson's conduct did not "limit[] and restrain[] government". Rather, by casting aside the restraints imposed by the law, Jackson permitted the government to run amok at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.

As a result of his making himself de facto dictator, four-thousand out of sixteen-thousand Cherokee pushed off their land died. Four-thousand out of thirteen-thousand Choctaw pushed off their land died. Nine-thousand out of twenty-two-thousand Muskogee (Creek) pushed off their land died. One can define "worst" in many different ways. But at least insofar as it means "most criminal," Jackson has no serious competition.

Note:

1. The framers understood and intended that treaties, once entered into, could be altered or canceled only by the consent of both parties:
Others, though content that treaties should be made in the mode proposed, are averse to their being the supreme laws of the land, They insist, and profess to believe, that treaties like acts of assembly, should be repealable at pleasure. This idea seems to be new and peculiar to this country, but new errors, as well as new truths, often appear. These gentlemen would do well to reflect that a treaty is only another name for a bargain, and that it would be impossible to find a nation who would make any bargain with us, which should be binding on them absolutely, but on us only so long and so far as we may think proper to be bound by it. They who make laws may, without doubt, amend or repeal them; and it will not be disputed that they who make treaties may alter or cancel them; but still let us not forget that treaties are made, not by only one of the contracting parties, but by both; and consequently, that as the consent of both was essential to their formation at first, so must it ever afterwards be to alter or cancel them.

(John Jay (member of the First and Second Continental Congresses, delegate at the New York ratifying convention, first Chief Justice of the United States, etc.), Federalist No. 64; see also James Wilson (member of the Second Continental Congress, delegate at the Pennsylvania ratifying convention, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, etc.), "Summation and Final Rebuttal" ("There is no doubt, sir, but under this constitution, treaties will become the supreme law of the land; nor is there any doubt but the senate and president possess the power of making them. But though treaties are to have the force of laws, they are in some important respects very different from other acts of legislation. In making laws, our own consent alone is necessary. In forming treaties, the concurrence of another power becomes necessary; treaties, sir, are truly contracts, or compacts, between the different states, nations, or princes, who find it convenient or necessary to enter into them.").)

The Supreme Court, however, has held that Congress can, by statute, amend or override a previously entered-into treaty. (See, e.g., Breard v. Greene, 523 U.S. 371, 376 (1998); Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1, 18 (1957) (plurality opinion); Whitney v. Robertson, 124 U.S. 190, 194 (1888); Cunard Steam-Ship Co. v. Robertson, 112 U.S. 580, 597-599 (1884); The Cherokee Tobacco, 78 U.S. 616, 621 (1870).) In my opinion, Jay had it right, and the Supreme Court got it wrong. With respect to Jackson, however, the point is irrelevant: Congress did not alter the treaties with the Cherokee; Congress explicitly reaffirmed the treaties with the Cherokee (and others), but Jackson violated them anyway.
User avatar
By STA
#138421
Todd D. wrote:You can think that, but with all due respect, you would be wrong. Age selection is little more than a gimmick they throw on internet tests to give it an air of legitimacy. Official IQ tests have no such adjustments.


Well you really have no proof of this theory so it will remain unproved until you come up with some.
By Hamilcar
#138433
I have to go with Woodrow Wilson for creating the beast of the 14 points and the botched Paris peace. He should have stayed at Princeton.
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By QatzelOk
#138506
Todd, that Clinton wouldn't sign the anti-Global Warming Kyoto Accord that so many other rich, developed nations signed was blamed on China -a nation that uses less than one twentieth the fossil fules per capita as america - is not a surprise. Blaming China or Portugal or Canada is easier than facing up to your own faults.
Congress will not authorize this disaster-forestalling legislation because congress is owned by GM and Exxon and their pals. End of story. Do you really believe that only Americans were able to see the uselessness of this treaty? That the rest of the world's people were duped?
Or maybe your president's super-high IQ let him in on a loop-hole in the Kyoto Protocol that no other world leader [except the OPEC ones] could find.
Those recalcitrant Chinese. Now throw me the keys to my Cadillac Escalade. I need to pick up some tictacs.
And Todd, enough with the gratuitous swear words. It makes it look like you are trying to prop up weak arguments with strong language. Which is obviously not true.
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By Todd D.
#140638
QatzelOk wrote:Todd, that Clinton wouldn't sign the anti-Global Warming Kyoto Accord that so many other rich, developed nations signed was blamed on China -a nation that uses less than one twentieth the fossil fules per capita as america - is not a surprise. Blaming China or Portugal or Canada is easier than facing up to your own faults.

Wrong. China emits 2,893 million metric tons of CO2 per year, 2.3 tons per capita (the second largest emitter besides the United States in terms of pure numbers), the US emits 5,410 million, 20.1 tons per capita. China emits a little under 10% per capita, but that's ignoring the fact that theres a Billion fuckin' people in China! Asking China to pull their weight in a treaty is not shirking our own responsibility, it's asking someone else to recognize theirs. What a concept.

Congress will not authorize this disaster-forestalling legislation because congress is owned by GM and Exxon and their pals. End of story.

Yay for paranoia. I already told you why Congress didn't ratify it. The funny thing is that you're the same kind of person that would blame Congress and the President when, as a direct result of this piece of toilet paper, the economy took a downward turn.

Do you really believe that only Americans were able to see the uselessness of this treaty? That the rest of the world's people were duped?
Or maybe your president's super-high IQ let him in on a loop-hole in the Kyoto Protocol that no other world leader [except the OPEC ones] could find.

Of course not, because it benefited them. They ratified it 1) They have very different ideologies than the United States does, and 2) Because like I said, it eased regulations on them while disproportionally harming the United States. It's no wonder that they ratified it.
Also, read what I wrote above, and please don't mention Bush's alleged IQ again.

Those recalcitrant Chinese. Now throw me the keys to my Cadillac Escalade. I need to pick up some tictacs.
And Todd, enough with the gratuitous swear words. It makes it look like you are trying to prop up weak arguments with strong language. Which is obviously not true.

I see, but inane, not to mention irrelevant, sarcasm, that's ok?
By briansmith
#140639
You really don't need to curse that much to have a discussion. Chill out with it or I'll start editing posts. I don't mind profanity, just not when it's overwhelming.
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By Comrade Joseph
#140938
The worst American president was FDR, because his economic reforms saved the United States from revolution. Damn him... >:
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By QatzelOk
#142542
Todd [ler?],

So the Chinese emit one tenth of what Amerians do. That means they would have to increase their emissions to catch up with the Great American Economy, no? When that happens, oil will be $20 a gallon and we will still need to limit its consumption to forestall environmental chaos. So what is your point about China? That total emmisions count rather than per capita? So you believe Monaco should be able to make as much CO2 as China or the US? Say it ain't so. How can we discuss international treaties when you can't even agree on some kind of logical criteria on which to base them?
Do you really believe that only Americans were able to see the uselessness of this treaty? That the rest of the world's people were duped?
Or maybe your president's super-high IQ let him in on a loop-hole in the Kyoto Protocol that no other world leader [except the OPEC ones] could find.

Of course not, because it benefited them. They ratified it 1) They have very different ideologies than the United States does, and 2) Because like I said, it eased regulations on them while disproportionally harming the United States. It's no wonder that they ratified it.
Also, read what I wrote above, and please don't mention Bush's alleged IQ again

TEll me, Todd, how does this treaty benifit Canada more than your country? Canada is oil self-sufficient.
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By Monkey Angst
#142665
clownboy wrote:As a semi-sidenote - tell me THIS doesn't look like John Kerry. :eek:

I noticed Kerry's Jackson resemblance early on. He is so money. :) You have to admit, John Kerry looks and sounds like a President. Given his continual fine-tuning of his positions to be more popular, he acts like one as well, which is really intended to be a compliment, if a backhanded one. Our smarter leaders tend to vacillate on important issues -- GHWB, for instance, used to be pro-choice before becoming VP -- I don't mind, as long as they end up on the right side. It's a sign of an engaged, questioning mind, which I see in most presidents... Bush and Reagan are notable exceptions. These guys appear to have "the courage of their convictions" when really I suspect they're just too intellectually uncurious to examine their position. I'm not talking about real intelligence -- Reagan, for one, was certainly a shrewd man, and contrary to that hoax going around a couple years ago, no one has measured the IQs of Presidents... I'm talking about intellectuality, which I see Bush lacking.
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By ComradeRick-CL
#155075
every president is on my list
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By Captain Hat
#156266
In my opinion, I have two candidates for worst President...
James Buchanan (1857-1861)
This is the president who stood by idly as Bleeding Kansas spiraled into chaos and let South Carolina seccede with out a single complaint. He allowed men like John Brown to terrorized the west and did nothing about it.
Ulyssess Grant (1869-1877)
Probably the most corrupt administrations the US has ever seen. Although Grant was not corrupt, bribes and payoffs went to every member of the cabinet and to Grant's personal secretary. Grant was a great general, but a terrible president.
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