[Comrade Ogilvy]

Hypothetically, we are talking trap and trace over the Internet. I'm not legally able to discuss any details, but I can tell you that they are just digging for info and I personally value my freedoms more than I do these anti-freedoms

Hypothetically, hitler could emerge from retirement too couldnt he?
If what you say is true, then you just as fucked up as those trying to use the patriot act for unscrupulous methods. I dont like losing my freedoms, but i will if it affects my bottom line. I think your full of shit.

[pheared]

Hypothetically, hitler could emerge from retirement too couldnt he?
If what you say is true, then you just as fucked up as those trying to use the patriot act for unscrupulous methods. I dont like losing my freedoms, but i will if it affects my bottom line. I think your full of shit.

I didn't choose to work in a place knowing that the PATRIOT ACT would come by and ask me to do things for the gov't like this. I am actively seeking a new job, but if I just drop the one I have now then I'll have a hard time paying for school, food, upcoming wedding, car, insurance, rent, and a bunch of other shit. I'm managing irresponsibilities.

Think what you want, I'll tell you how much I care.

[Demosthenes]

Well pheared your rambling a bit now, I can't understand what point you're trying to prove by going through your travails at the airport? So you got frisked at the airport? Big fuckin deal! The government can frisk me anytime they think they have a reason and frankly I don't care. If that's teh price to pay for a measure of security than I'm proud to do it! But I guess a guy like you doesn't appreciate that. Only the fact that he was inconvienied matters. Whatever...that sounds like a spoiled brat talking.

I believe JT123 has challenged other liberals on several occasions to show proof of the abuses people are allegedly suffering due to the Patriot Act and I have yet to see anyone offer up any. Perhaps you have some other than airport inconvieniences??? If not this is the same ole anti-Bush, anti-republican bullshit we've been hearing since the the democrats lost power in 2000. (yawn...)

I'm not sure if you were trying to say it should be obvious that you're no threat to this country or not, and that is why it was stupid to search you at the airport. Let's not forget if this is what you were trying to say that it was the liberals who called for equal opportunity searching. Because arabs in this country might get their feelings hurt if we had to search them. What a joke!!!

[pheared]

Sorry if it was a bit incoherent. JT has a couple of comments in that small blurb that I was trying to address.

My point was that I felt the inconveniences that were put upon me were high on the inconvenience level while providing no more apparent security. I was annoyed that he didn't ask me why I was carrying a device that would help me locate potential targets, as I cross the border between Canada and the US. Also, the airport security stuff really isn't my focus when it comes to the PATRIOT ACT, but JT brought it up so I thought I would share.

This isn't just an anti-Bush, anti-Repub diatribe. The word is that there are people on both primary parties who oppose the legislation and I didn't name anyone in particular. However, since you've brought it up, I find Ashcroft to be more dangerous to any of us than Bush.

Now, I'm willing to bet that one reason people can't normally provide you with examples of PA abuses is because the justice department refuses to release any information about previous cases. Why is it that Ashcroft can stand there and withold statistics like this? I'm sure you've heard him say that he can't release that information because it would be a breach of security. But, how are we supposed to be able to monitor it to make sure there are no abuses? Will we just find out in 50 years after it has been declassified or something? I don't think this is a fair tradeoff. I think this is one of the areas that brings in some angry conservatives because it's too "the Government owns you" for them. The justice department is acting as if it doesn't have to answer to anyone.

I think these are real issues.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

THEY HAVE RELEASED STATISTICS!! You just dont like them so you choose to ignore them. Find them, they're out there.
And for the record. A recent gallop poll revealed that 91% of americans say the HAVE NOT BEEN AFFECTED THE NAZI ACT!
By DHS are you referring to the Department of Health Services? If so, you should know first hand that most of the patriot act is not novel.
I too know first hand that airport security is MUCH better than it was before 9-11. Give these people a fucking break, you cant expect the whole system to become spotless after a few mos.
Concerning the patriot act, i too have a distrust of the government. But i dont believe that those on the ground are untrustworthy. An FBI agent on the tip of the spear should not have to go though shitloads of beaurocratic red-tape to move on a suspect he 'knows' is a danger. He should have the power to act if it involves saving lives. If an arab happens to unjustly spend a few days in jail then a few broken eggs are to be expected. Do you really think that all those sentenced to the death penalty are guilty? But is that any reason to repeal it?
Look man, the government already (BEFORE THE PATRIOT ACTS) tells you what rights you have, and you've been content until now. The government can hold you right now without evidence, without notification, its just the bullshit beaurocracy is being trimmed, in matter of national security when time and inconspicuousness are of the essence, then so be it. If the patriot act only affects .05% of the population and helps to deter more attacks, than its worth it. Americans have time and time again curtailed their freedoms for the benefit of the whole. This is no different. When thse powers start to get abused, there will be a backlash. History has shown that americans will only put up with so much bullshit.

[pheared]

I can't tell if you're arguing for or against what the government has done/is doing.

You give good points for why they shouldn't be doing it, but seem to think it's all just fine, and well, we didn't need those freedoms anyway because we've given them up before?

Let's have Freedom most of the time?

It's easy for you to say that you don't care if there are a "few broken eggs" since you haven't been one. I'm lucky to not have been one either but that doesn't mean I think it's acceptible. Freedom should be seen in terms of discrete mathematics. Either all are Free or there is no Freedom. It's plain and simple. I don't like guns personally, but I don't go rallying to get them banned despite the fact that guns are used in numerous crimes daily. This isn't a Freedom Buffet.

And no, I don't think everyone who has been sentenced to the death penalty is guilty (since that was proven) which is why I was in favor of the moratoriums that allowed us to scrutinize the process and make sure there aren't any unfair biases. What the hell are you getting at?

You sir have a shallow idea of what it means to be Free. I even managed to say that without resorting to name calling. Take a hint.

By the way, DHS = Department of Homeland Security.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I can't tell if you're arguing for or against what the government has done/is doing.

Since you seem to know, but wont tell us, i'll have to assume they're doing nothing.

Let's have Freedom most of the time?

Freedom has been defined many differnet ways for many different centuries. I personally like the freedom to go to work without having airplanes fly into them.

It's easy for you to say that you don't care if there are a "few broken eggs" since you haven't been one.

The government has been breaking eggs for the good of the masses for years. Whats you point?

Either all are Free or there is no Freedom. It's plain and simple.

WTF??? Plain and simple, politics is NEVER plain and simple. Your freedom means burning bodies falling from the 100th floor of the WTC.

I don't like guns personally, but I don't go rallying to get them banned despite the fact that guns are used in numerous crimes daily.

EXACTLY!! You take the broken eggs with the rest.

What the hell are you getting at?

What I am getting at is howcome you think its ok for innocent people to be exectued. Life is most important right we have but it can be unjustly wisped away. Why is it ok to use these laws against drug offenders. Why do bounty hunters have more powers than law enforcement? Why are you just NOW making a ruckus about something that has been going on for 200+ years.

You sir have a shallow idea of what it means to be Free.

Call it what you want, and go back to living in fantasy land where all the kind liberals will be nice to each other.

I even managed to say that without resorting to name calling. Take a hint.

I didnt know I had, but If I did, my apoligies.

[pheared]

Since you seem to know, but wont tell us, i'll have to assume they're doing nothing.

If I did, I would be in violation of the law. I'm sorry, but I'm a law abiding citizen.

WTF??? Plain and simple, politics is NEVER plain and simple. Your freedom means burning bodies falling from the 100th floor of the WTC.

And so does yours. I think mine wins.

EXACTLY!! You take the broken eggs with the rest.

I was attempting to get at the irrational moves that you are condoning. Freedom shouldn't be pick and choose.

What I am getting at is howcome you think its ok for innocent people to be exectued. Life is most important right we have but it can be unjustly wisped away. Why is it ok to use these laws against drug offenders. Why do bounty hunters have more powers than law enforcement? Why are you just NOW making a ruckus about something that has been going on for 200+ years.

First of all, I don't recall telling you that I was for or against the death penalty. I didn't tell you how I feel about drug laws either.

I am just NOW making a ruckus about something that has been going on for 200+ years because I've only been sentient for 23 of them. Seems like as good a time as any.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

If I did, I would be in violation of the law. I'm sorry, but I'm a law abiding citizen.

Then i suppose you came here anonomously to vent your guilty conscious concerning the mass atrocites of civil liberties you been forced to commit against the american populace in the name of the fourth reich. Please.
Look, the constitution is a living breathing document. It is meant to be interpreted. Times change, people change, and so must the law if it is to survive. IF you cant pick your freedoms then were destined for anarchy, because whose fucking right is it to tell me that I cant yell fire in a theatre, the bill of rights gives me that right, they're was no asterisk underneath that amendment, remember? You cant pick and choose your freedoms right?[/quote]

[Demosthenes]

I have to agree with JT123 all the way. It seems to me the biggest difference here is you are coming from a very idealistic viewpoint that certainly sounds great in our heads (everybody should be free all the time no matter what) but isn't all that realistic when serious matters are at hand. How many people would be calling for Bush's head or Ashcroft's for that matter if another major terrorist attack happened? EVERYBODY that's who. So it seems they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't". Better to err on the side of caution and trade the innocense of a few who are wrongly condemed or accused than to risk loosing another 3000 permanently.

And you know if white german looking males begin an uprising and decide to start commiting terrorists attacks on civilians in this country I'm gonna understand if the governemnt needs to take a closer look at me when I travel around with my laptop or other electronic devices. I'm gonna understand and cooperate knowing that once they see I'm a regular law abiding citizen they can trust to behave, that I'll be left to my own devices.

I really fail to see why this is such an issue. You can say tightened regulations are an unfair hedge on personal freedom if you choose but it still sounds spoiled to me. I'm willing to deal with the extra security measures and I think most rational people are too. A person can quote Ben Franklin all they want but that doesn't make this principle invalid.

The fact is you can't measure how many terrorist acts have been prevented due to the Patriot act because they've never happened. I know I'm being Captain obvious here but I don't think people who are so against the new procedures really comprehend this. The fact that these thwarted terrorist acts haven't occured is the very reason we implemented thes Patriot Act in the first place.

If you expect the justice department to personally give you inside information into what has worked, what hasn't, and how many innocents have been harmed you're crazy! I know full well there are many things that go on that I'll never know about and probably don't want to know about. This is the nature of the beast. Anyone who thinks they need to know everything about our security either needs to sign up and do the job themselves or learn to have a little faith in the people on teh ground to whom JT123 was referring. I believe in those people very much. They are as hard working and diligent as anyone in this country, if not more. They deserve respect and honor not scorn and mistrust. The only people who have anything to fear from them in the long term are the very people they are just with protecting us against.

You seem to claiming some inside information into the horrors of heightened security, yet you also say we just have to trust you because you can't reveal this information. Ok...I suppose that's fair but you can't expect us to just suddenly change our minds based on "ya just gotta trust me".

I'm from the "Show Me" state (Yes, Ashcroft's home state) I gotta see it to believe it and even then I'll probably take it with a grain of salt...If you can't be specific then maybe you shouldn't have brought up your unnamed example.

[pheared]

I don't expect to change anyone's opinion on politicsforum. That would be patently insane.

It's unfortunate that I can't talk about it, and yes, you'll just have to trust me. Such is the law.

Seems to me like it would be time well spent to get the world to be less angry with us as a nation than to just start strip searching citizens. The latter says to me that we've accepted that we are going to be hated and that people are after us and we shouldn't do anything to change that. I don't have all the answers as to how to go about fixing the former since I'm no politician, but it logically looks like the better approach. If no one is after your head, there is no reason to be on the defensive.

Realistically, that's not likely to happen with our current foreign policies. Even with better policies, there is always that infinitesimal percentage of the world population that will never be satisfied, but it sounds like it will produce a safer world for us in the long run.

I don't expect either of your opinions to change, and my opinion has been laid bare, so I doubt we can get anywhere further in this thread.

[Todd D.]

Concerning the patriot act, i too have a distrust of the government. But i dont believe that those on the ground are untrustworthy.

Doesn't matter, you gave the office the power, not the person. Eventually this crap will get into the hands of someone that you don't like, and then you'll be up the proverbial creek. Same reason that Reps liked invading Panama, complained about Bosnia, and are all for Iraq. If it serves your needs then it's cool, otherwise it's unconstitutional. Dems do the same thing.

Point is the Patriot act gave the government an incredible amount of power that violates the privacy of United States citizens, and that's unconstitutional. We're in a war? Don't care. We're fighting terrorism, don't care. There are things I talk to my girlfriend about that aren't illegal but don't need an audience for, and I don't think the FBI has any right barging in on me without due process. This garbage has gone far, in my opinion.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

A flag is more than just a piece of polyester on a pole.
A flag is a symbol of pride,war,death and joy. Its not
a piece of clothing to wear evryday. Its like a bad cuss word, if
you say it often it looses its force.If americans have stoped waving their flags 2 years after 911 then it just shows that they have the right flag-culture.

[Ásatrúar]

An important part of one's nationality is the flag.

b) the Anti-Patriots, or people who don't agree with patriotism and never will fly any flag.

These are more the one world flag crowd. They would like to see all of us under one government and country. They like patriotism, just not the kind which is rooted in love for one's country.

[Zanzibar]

My flag has flown over my home for 7 years now

[Boondock Saint]

My flag is folded and waiting to be burned by the local veterans, then I will purchase a new one.

You can't go flying a flag that gets all ratty ... and now I have my Thanksgiving flag up and soon my snowman flag ... and before that my vampire flag ... so ... I got time.

[The One.]

However, the worst thing I've seen was this 'New Years Eve'. I was at a party in Toronto and at this party they had a one minute silence for 11/9. I couldn't help laughing and people got really upset. What's up with that?

Because people find it disrespectful that you laugh at the dead. It would be real funny if I came to your mama's funeral and laughed my ass off.

[Vivisekt]

Because people find it disrespectful that you laugh at the dead. It would be real funny if I came to your mama's funeral and laughed my ass off.

But that isn't laughing at the dead, it's laughing at the living and their orchestrated moments of silence. I was three blocks away from the wtc when the second plane hit. I saw the whole thing. One of my friends died in there... and i still find myself laughing at these moments of silence. They seem so fake.

I don't think many people understand that a person can deal with grief in different ways. Laughter is definately one of them, and being light harted about something is much more effective than mourning and mourning and mourning and mourning until your eyes bleed. Death is a part of life. Accept it.

[ohgolly]

[Monkey Angst]

And for the record. A recent gallop poll revealed that 91% of americans say the HAVE NOT BEEN AFFECTED THE NAZI ACT!

Also for the record, 9% = 27 million people.