[bach]

Funding Private schools wih the people's money makes public schools worst of what they actually are, besides creating second class education which lowers the standars for poor children.

At the end those who went to private schools end up achieving the highest goals, leaving those on top once again on top, UNDERMINING MERITOCRACY and the rule of knowledge.

When MERITOCRACY is not implemented you get people like Bush on the White House, and not in ranch on the mexican border shunting immigrants as "it should be".

There were the founding fathers and before the end there was G W Bush.

[unPerson1]

VOTE FOR BUSH!

It'll be good for the world in the long run. Another ten to fifteen years of Bush and others like him, and the US will be in such deep trouble that it'll probably go into another depression. A weak US is good for the world.

[clownboy]

Funding Private schools wih the people's money makes public schools worst of what they actually are, besides creating second class education which lowers the standars for poor children.

I disagree and I don't see your understanding of the voucher system. It isn't the federal government that would be supporting private schools - it's parents, on a one by one basis. ALL parents - rich, poor, bug-eyed, get to decide which school and which system they wish.

The ultra-pricey, exclusive schools will remain out of reach for the poor. No solution ever put forth deals with that situation. But the voucher system put choice back onto the table for parents. Many great private schools exist outside the sphere of the ultra-rich.

There's no way, from what I've seen of your views here, that you would enjoy a true meritocracy at all.

[clownboy]

VOTE FOR BUSH!

It'll be good for the world in the long run. Another ten to fifteen years of Bush and others like him, and the US will be in such deep trouble that it'll probably go into another depression. A weak US is good for the world.

And you're from where?
If the US went into a deep depression, most likely, wherever you live, you'd be sucking dust. If it's true as so many claim, that we consume a majority of the world's resources - you know that means we PURCHASE them from everywhere in the world. We ARE the huge client.

If we stop buying, if we stop sending the foreign aid, stop paying our debts altogether - you're toast along with the rest of us.

[Falleen Prince Xizor]

Ok I'm done being an ass now.

really, i hadn't noticed...

If we stop buying, if we stop sending the foreign aid, stop paying our debts altogether - you're toast along with the rest of us.

that's the scary part, if the US screws up, everyone does...

[Dark Canuck]

who is Adam Yoshida?

The name sounds somewhat asian, hard to imagine trp as anything other than some liley white sub urban lout.

[AlphaRed]

The ultra-pricey, exclusive schools will remain out of reach for the poor. No solution ever put forth deals with that situation. But the voucher system put choice back onto the table for parents. Many great private schools exist outside the sphere of the ultra-rich.

How's this for a solution to the situation. Take one or two percent of the money out of one of Bush's halfassed programs and fix every school in the country. Instead of resegregating the schools by helping rich white parents send their rich white kids to elitist private schools or religious schools, why not skim off a little money from, i don't know, maybe the star wars missle program.

[clownboy]

How's this for a solution to the situation. Take one or two percent of the money out of one of Bush's halfassed programs and fix every school in the country. Instead of resegregating the schools by helping rich white parents send their rich white kids to elitist private schools or religious schools, why not skim off a little money from, i don't know, maybe the star wars missle program.

Well that might work, if money was all public school needed to "fix" itself. We found that not to be true here in Oregon. We pay the highest per student and we are nowhere near the highest in rankings. School systems that out-perform ours do so with as little as half what we pay.

Money isn't always the answer. And once again - the voucher system does nothing of the sort (re: your claims). EVERY student rich, poor, bug-eyed, gets the same amount of money in their voucher. The ONLY differences from now is that EVERY parent will have a choice, not just the rich.

You have a problem with choice?

[Lockbox]

VOTE FOR BUSH!

It'll be good for the world in the long run. Another ten to fifteen years of Bush and others like him, and the US will be in such deep trouble that it'll probably go into another depression. A weak US is good for the world.

Yes... and welcome, to the machine

Economics aside, I would personally love to see a strong US. We have the resources to do a great deal of good. Now all we need is ample leadership. Too bad Clark's outa the running . Besides, I'm not sure the world would survive another fifteen years of neo-reaganites. One things for sure, we would be missing out on our precious .tv domains (unless said nation manages to buy itself some higher ground ).

[bach]

Lockbox I agree 100% with you, if all the power that the US has was use to the benefit the citizens of the world, and not only certain selected sectors, we could live in better and more peaceful world.

Some may argue that the US power should only be used for the benefit of its citizens, however, thats's most of the time a lie, at the end the vast mayority of the benefits go to the rich of the world, and their assets invested in the US economy, americans at the end only get the tips for making those investments generate profits.

[Goranhammer]

if all the power that the US has was use to the benefit the citizens of the world, and not only certain selected sectors, we could live in better and more peaceful world.

Correction. If all the power that the U.S. has was used to the benefit of the citizens of the world, we wouldn't HAVE ALL THE POWER.

What the fuck? America is a huge charity? Anyone that thinks that can go fuckin' cry in Sally Struthers' ear.

Do you think we're the richest country in the world because we practice true socialism? I'll scoff at that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Not EVERYONE in this world is worthy of help in my eyes. Many are, but surely not all. It's not my fault if a kid from Uganda is starving, while I come home and eat my steak in front of my wide-screen TV (which I'm getting another of next month). I've earned everything I have, and I didn't go to school and try as hard as I have to be altruistic to the point of being foolish, and give away everything I have. Yeah, I have sympathy for the people who can't feed themselves, and I'm not completely against foreign aid sent to them, in moderation. But don't assume that because I have 2 apples, and you have none, that I should give you an apple because it's the "right thing to do". I don't feel a need to be punished because I worked hard.

[Visage of Glory]

1. It is true that the rich got the biggest tax cut. That is because they pay most of the taxes. I read a good example of this in an editorial once, and I will give a shortened version of it. Eight men go out to dinner and spend exactly a hundred dollars. Each pays an amount equal to their income. A rich man pays $50, a semi-rich pays $30, three middle class pay $5 each, two working-class guys pay $2, and one poor guy pays $1. Then one day, the restaraunt they eat at give them a $16 discount. If all of them got the same cut on their prices, they would each have to pay $2 less. That would mean the three poorest wouldn't have to pay anything while the two richest barely get any break. See a problem with that. It should be, and is, something more along these lines. 50->42, 30->26, 5-4 2-1.5, and 1->1. My example is far from perfect, but I hope it proves my point.

2. Great job here. He should carry America's interest's first. He was not elected to be in charge of a huminatarian effort in South Africa or Vietnam. He was elected as President of the United States of America, and that is what he should worry about.

3. I like this one except that they were not wrong because they were authoritarian, but because they were CORRUPT.

4. Absolutely. If the terrorists want to deal it out, they had better be able to take it.

5. I go to public school. I want to go to a private school, but my parents cannot afford it. Bad deal. We just had to pass more taxes to pay for all of the new schools our school district has to build. My little sister is getting a much better education now that she is in private school, but unfortunately she will have to go back to public next year.

6. Welfare is good, but charity is a lot better.

7. This statement is funny, but sad. The US is the most powerful nation on the planet, (unless you count the EU, and it is still not a sure thing), but some people don't give us the respect we deserve. Bush changed all that when he rebelled against the UN.

8. This is a great focus. I think space travel is great, and we need to continue to travel to the moon so that we may one day send a manned flight to Mars and other planets. This is doubtful to happen if Kerry is elected.

9. Democracy is great, and should be spread. He is trying to do that, and that is a noble and complimentary goal.

10. I want to extend this one to be even broader. Not only does he not give into dictators, but he also does not yield to what other people think he should do. He knows what he believes, and is firm in those beliefs.

[viking99]

Funding Private schools wih the people's money makes public schools worst of what they actually are, besides creating second class education which lowers the standars for poor children.

At the end those who went to private schools end up achieving the highest goals, leaving those on top once again on top, UNDERMINING MERITOCRACY and the rule of knowledge.

I agree with you in principle here. A just meritocracy is essential in any society, and it requires an equal starting point. Moreover, allowing people to spend their money on a private education if they choose may harm the quality of public education. On the other hand, it might not, as money is not everything in education. For now, let's assume it does make a difference. Those who, even with a voucher, cannot afford private school, will have a poorer education. Those who can afford private school with their voucher and couldn't before, will have a better education. However, they probably will only have enough money to afford an inexpensive private school, and as we're assuming education is proportional to money spent, their education is only slightly better. Those who could afford a private school before can now afford a better private school and thus a slightly better education. The poor would have slightly worse education, while everyone else should have slightly better education. This is a judgment call, as it benefits some and harms others (I personally think high school education should be more equal, so I oppose vouchers).

The most important observation here, though, is that there are not simply two tiers: public and private schools. There is a vast spectrum of private schools, and crossing over from public to private school does not automatically make someone significantly smarter. I am sure that when I was in high school, there were some area private schools that weren't even as good as our public school.

Probably the best way of achieving equal education for all is to ban private schooling. Firstly, I do not think this can be done. You'd have to ban private tutoring, non-school classes, and even parental teaching. Even more importantly, this is a totally condemnable proposal, not at all becoming of any free society. In other words, education can never be equal.

This, however, does not mean we shouldn't try to make it as equal as possible. While we cannot forbid private education, we can try to equalize the quality of public schools throughout the country. There is an ENORMOUS disparity in the quality of public education. There are schools where it is difficult to even survive, and there are schools where if you don't get into the college of your choice, it can't be anyone's fault but your own. Finally, funding for schools shouldn't be directed at getting the newest versions of books every few years or getting the latest computing equipment (although in some areas, rapid changes absolutely require new books). Rather the emphasis should be placed on offering salaries for teachers that are competitive with that of private schools and on developing a broad, all-inclusive curriculum. The arts, non-core sciences and maths, and yes, even sports, are as important as core sciences, mathematics, and history. If everyone were a scientist, mathematician, or a historian, the world would be a boring place.

*huff* *wheeze* That being said, DAMN that's a long post! Sorry!

[clownboy]

A couple lynchpins you hang your suppositions on are faulty.

However, they probably will only have enough money to afford an inexpensive private school, and as we're assuming education is proportional to money spent, their education is only slightly better.

Your use of the royal WE in this instance is misplaced. We are assuming no such thing. My Grandchildren go to a private school that I pay for. It is VASTLY superior to public schools here. Any of the voucher systems proposed would easily cover what I pay.

Here in Oregon we pay the highest per student, per year (public schools) of any of the states. Public school systems with much higher scores all around pay HALF what we do. Throwing money at a system that is broken aint gonna fix it.

The arts, non-core sciences and maths, and yes, even sports, are as important as core sciences, mathematics, and history.

So say you. Some of us say that's precisely what college is for. Why are you opposed to giving ALL parents a choice.

This is one of the reasons why private schools outperform public schools. In short, public schools must teach what the government thinks is important where private schools teach what parents think is important.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

who is Adam Yoshida?

The name sounds somewhat asian, hard to imagine trp as anything other than some liley white sub urban lout.

That is without a doubt the most racist thing I've ever seen on this forum, and I don't know how you get off as calling OTHER people bigoted.

[viking99]

Your use of the royal WE in this instance is misplaced. We are assuming no such thing.

Firstly, I don't know where you get the idea that's a royal "we". I was simply drawing on my earlier statement in which I said "let's assume..." Just like in any logical argument, I had to make assumptions.

I stand by my assumption, though I admitted even in my previous message that it is not necessarily true. It's a generalization. But based on the idea that a random school with more money more likely than not will be better than another random school with less money, I think it's a logical generalization.

Throwing money at a system that is broken aint gonna fix it.

I never said to throw money at anything. But I do think that the way money is allocated at the schools can help fix the system.

So say you. Some of us say that's precisely what college is for. Why are you opposed to giving ALL parents a choice.

This is one of the reasons why private schools outperform public schools. In short, public schools must teach what the government thinks is important where private schools teach what parents think is important.

I think that college is often too late for people to all of a sudden take up a field of study and make a career out of it. Not that it can't be done, but it is very difficult. And what about those who don't go to college? Lots of artists and athletes start working right from high school. Opposed to giving parents a choice? I'm not saying all these things should be mandatory curriculum, but they certainly should be available to students. I'm saying the schools should teach all sorts of things, not just what the government thinks is important, not just what parents think is important, but BOTH (and let's not forget what students think is important). I'm not for restricting choice, I'm for expanding it, but within the public school system.

[QatzelOk]

1. Tax Cuts
Social welfare state shrinks
2. Defend America's Intrests first.
World is not dividable anymore
3. Brought down 2 authortian governments.
Has created many more than this
4. He gave our version of Jihad agaist the terrorists.
Violence by any other name.
5. He trying to make it easyer to send children to private schools.
Did you go to public school?
6. Trying to get America out of the idea of a Wel-fare state. By privatising some parts of SS.
I didn't know America had a secret service. But it doesn't surprise me.
7. He reminded the world were still a super power.
The Vietnamese remembered that though.
8. Dont forget is idea to return to the moon.
Yes, and to do the hustle with the Fonze.
9. He creating democratic governments in the world.
Where?
10. He dosent give into black-mail by Dictators. (Example: North Korea)
He more accurately blackmails dictators.

[Boris]

Will you kids shut up about grammar and spelling.

I realize spelling doesn't really matter and even certain grammar errors. But when it looks like a 2nd grader in Russia can construct better sentences than a guy who claims to be 20 and is ranting about the good education system that the USA has thats where a line is crossed.

[Goranhammer]

6. Trying to get America out of the idea of a Wel-fare state. By privatising some parts of SS.
I didn't know America had a secret service. But it doesn't surprise me.

BUZZ!



In this instance, SS does not mean secret service.

Care for the lightning round?

[Atromos]

I'm not here to influence anyone to do as I do by force, just to say what I feel. No more, no less.

That's a bunch of bull. We all know you try to impose your views on other people through debate. Why else would anyone be on this forum? (okay maybe a few just to read posts)

anywho.... that's that

-Atromos