[maz]

No, I never said that -- I've been *generalizing* from the experience of police brutality / killings in Portland, to the *U.S.* as a whole. That's where that number comes from.

Ok, so they are attacking regular citizens who have nothing to do with the police. And I forgot that a lot of this started with Customs and Border Protection and ICE officers.

Can you explain why Antifa and BLM have a problem with these agencies who aren't responsible for the few police killings in Portland?



[url]Police arrest suspect who brutally beat a man during Portland protest[/url]

The Black Lives Matter protester suspected of brutally beating a bystander during a demonstration in Portland has been arrested.

Marquise Love, 25, handed himself into police on Friday morning following a city-wide manhunt that lasted four days.

Online records show he has now been charged with felony assault, felony coercion and felony riot. Bail has been set at $260,000.

Love is accused of punching and kicking Adam Haner in the head after he accidentally became caught up in a protest on Sunday evening.

Haner crashed his pickup truck on a sidewalk near the demonstration, before he was pulled from the vehicle and beaten.

Video footage showed a man - believed to be Love - kicking Haner unconscious. The victim also suffered two black eyes in the vicious beating.

Love already has a lengthy criminal record which includes charges for domestic assault, interfering with public transport, driving without a license, domestic harassment and guns charges.

In a statement on Friday, Portland Police Chief confirmed the arrest, but did not say what provoked Love to hand himself in.

'I am pleased the suspect in this case turned himself in and appreciate all of the efforts to facilitate this safe resolution,' he stated.

'Thank you to all of the members of the public who have provided information and tips to our investigators. Your assistance is very much appreciated.'

Footage of Haner's beating has sparked outrage on the internet since it first began circulating late on Sunday.

In the video, demonstrators are seen hauling Haner out from his truck and throwing him to the ground. The BLM protesters appear to believe that he deliberately plowed his vehicle into them.

Hanner, who was profusely bleeding from the head, was ordered to sit on the ground and told to 'wait for police to arrive.'

However, he was knocked out by a vicious kick to the side of his head. The kick was purportedly made by Love.

As he lay unconscious on the ground, shouts of 'Black Lives Matter' were heard as other protesters attempted to provide first aid.

Others began ransacking the man's truck and when questioned by bystanders, they explained that they were simply 'checking for weapons.'

A look into his recent social media activity revealed that he has shared memes poking fun at Black Lives Matter protests.

One of his posts read: 'Would it be wrong to follow rioters home and burn down their properties? Asking for a friend.'

Haner has denied deliberately trying to provoke the protesters.

On Thursday evening, police also released a photo of an eyewitness, and asked him to come forward saying he may be able to provide more information on the attack.

David Hernandez, who shot the graphic footage, says he believes Haner was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

'I think he just felt extremely threatened,' Hernandez said in an interview.

'They chased him... until he finally crashed. When they finally caught up to him, they went nuts.

'This was violent, extremely violent. Sometimes I forget I'm walking the streets of an American city in the Northwest. Sometimes it feels like you're walking in a Third World county.'

[SpecialOlympian]

Andy Ngo literally hung around with the fascist Patriot Prayer and overheard them plan an attack on a bar, and then lied and said Patriot Prayer was attacked. He is a fascist collaborator and actively lies on their behalf.

[ckaihatsu]

Ok, so they are attacking regular citizens who have nothing to do with the police. And I forgot that a lot of this started with Customs and Border Protection and ICE officers.

Can you explain why Antifa and BLM have a problem with these agencies who aren't responsible for the few police killings in Portland?

1296858659868164098

[url]Police arrest suspect who brutally beat a man during Portland protest[/url]

1296908677618704385

So you're being *one-sided* around this issue, and you're not addressing the *body count* of either / both sides.

Remember, the thing that *kicked off* all of these BLM / Antifa protests nationwide was the killing of George Floyd, by cops -- the issue is *killer cops* and police brutality, which has been going on for decades and centuries.

I don't know what you expect me to say here, but I definitely think you're *off-focus*, and *one-sided* in your attentions on this matter.

[maz]

So you're being *one-sided* around this issue, and you're not addressing the *body count* of either / both sides.

What's the body count of Portland? I will address that.

Remember, the thing that *kicked off* all of these BLM / Antifa protests nationwide was the killing of George Floyd, by cops -- the issue is *killer cops* and police brutality, which has been going on for decades and centuries.

George Floyd wasn't from Porltand, didn't live in Portland and wasn't killed in Portland. The nationwide protests are mostly over save for a few cities where the there are protests about issues other than George Floyd.

Besides, the offending officers were arrested and have been charged. Why do you claim that Protesters in Portland are still protesting for something that didn't even happen there?

[Unthinking Majority]

The far-left are destroying their own cities or allowing it to happen. If there are normal people still in Portland they might want to demand the mayor resign and end this craziness.

[Unthinking Majority]

The protestors should try non-violent resistance. That crazy thing MLK and his hero Gandhi did.

The world keeps laughing at America. Always with the violence they are. A bunch of uncivilized animals.

[wat0n]

Have the protesters gotten to the mayor's home? That at least toughened the mayors of Seattle and Chicago up.

[ckaihatsu]

What's the body count of Portland? I will address that.

Go and find out. Get back to me when you're ready.

George Floyd wasn't from Porltand, didn't live in Portland and wasn't killed in Portland. The nationwide protests are mostly over save for a few cities where the there are protests about issues other than George Floyd.

So what are the issues, according to you?

What are the *protestors* saying the issues are?

Besides, the offending officers were arrested and have been charged. Why do you claim that Protesters in Portland are still protesting for something that didn't even happen there?

Again, go and research that. I'll be here.

The protestors should try non-violent resistance. That crazy thing MLK and his hero Gandhi did.

The world keeps laughing at America. Always with the violence they are. A bunch of uncivilized animals.

You're glossing over the violence of the killer cops -- *police brutality* is the most violent civil force here in the U.S. Have you tried preaching nonviolence to the *cops* yet?

[Unthinking Majority]

You're glossing over the violence of the killer cops -- *police brutality* is the most violent civil force here in the U.S. Have you tried preaching nonviolence to the *cops* yet?

That's because police have a monopoly on violence. They're literally paid to commit violence. Unfortunately laws can only be enforced through violence. This prevents everyone taking the law into their own hands. If you want to see when that happens, look at countries with weak rule of law in the developing world. The alternative is far worse.

The problem is the police are enforcing the laws and committing violence unlawfully and unjustly, and tend to get away with it. There's another thread where i've criticized the cops many times, including the ones involved with Floyd.

Any cops or protestors committing violence unlawfully i'll criticize.

[ckaihatsu]

That's because police have a monopoly on violence. They're literally paid to commit violence. Unfortunately laws can only be enforced through violence. This prevents everyone taking the law into their own hands. If you want to see when that happens, look at countries with weak rule of law in the developing world. The alternative is far worse.

The problem is the police are enforcing the laws and committing violence unlawfully and unjustly, and tend to get away with it. There's another thread where i've criticized the cops many times, including the ones involved with Floyd.

Any cops or protestors committing violence unlawfully i'll criticize.

You're using the 'few bad apples' argument, which doesn't hold water, because cops have killed people *everywhere* in the U.S. This indicates that there's something wrong with the 'higher-ups', meaning the *government*, that allows killer cops to not be prosecuted like (civilian) killers.

The *alternative* is to *downsize* police departments so that their presence and potential to kill is likewise lessened.

There's a precedent in the Seattle general strike of 1919:

Seattle workers had a radical tradition. During the war, the president of the Seattle AFL, a socialist, was imprisoned for opposing the draft, was tortured, and there were great labor rallies in the streets to protest.

The city now stopped functioning, except for activities organized by the strikers to provide essential needs. Firemen agreed to stay on the job. Laundry workers handled only hospital laundry. Vehicles authorized to move carried signs "Exempted by the General Strike Committee." Thirty-five neighborhood milk stations were set up. Every day thirty thousand meals were prepared in large kitchens, then transported to halls all over the city and served cafeteria style, with strikers paying twenty-five cents a meal, the general public thirty-five cents. People were allowed to eat as much as they wanted of the beef stew, spaghetti, bread, and coffee.

A Labor War Veteran's Guard was organized to keep the peace. On the blackboard at one of its headquarters was written: "The purpose of this organization is to preserve law and order without the use of force. No volunteer will have any police power or be allowed to carry weapons of any sort, but to use persuasion only." During the strike, crime in the city decreased. The commander of the U.S. army detachment sent into the area told the strikers' committee that in forty years of military experience he hadn't seen so quiet and orderly a city. A poem printed in the Seattle Union Record (a daily newspaper put out by labor people) by someone named Anise:

What scares them most is
That NOTHING HAPPENS!

They are ready For DISTURBANCES.

They have machine guns

And soldiers,

But this SMILING SILENCE

is uncanny.

The business men

Don't understand

That sort of weapon...

It is your SMILE

That is UPSETTING

Their reliance

On Artillery, brother!

It is the garbage wagons

That go along the street

Marked "EXEMPT

by STRIKE COMMIITED."

It is the milk stations

That are getting better daily,

And the three hundred

WAR Veterans of Labor

Handling the crowds

WITHOUT GUNS,

For these things speak

Of a NEW POWER

And a NEW WORLD

That they do not feel

At HOME in.

The mayor swore in 2,400 special deputies, many of them students at the University of Washington. Almost a thousand sailors and marines were brought into the city by the U.S. government. The general strike ended after five days, according to the General Strike Committee because of pressure from the international officers of the various unions, as well as the difficulties of living in a shut-down city.

The strike had been peaceful. But when it was over, there were raids and arrests: on the Socialist party headquarters, on a printing plant. Thirty-nine members of the IWW were jailed as "ring- leaders of anarchy."

http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinnselhel15.html

[Unthinking Majority]

You're using the 'few bad apples' argument, which doesn't hold water, because cops have killed people *everywhere* in the U.S.

I never said it was just a few bad apples. In fact, I think it's a massive problem involving many if not most, if not all officers.

A cop who breaks the law and department policies in performance of their duties and abuses their power is a bad cop. A "good cop" who sees it happen and does nothing is also a bad cop, because a cop's duty is stop criminal activity, whether done by cops or civilians.

This indicates that there's something wrong with the 'higher-ups', meaning the *government*, that allows killer cops to not be prosecuted like (civilian) killers.

Yes exactly. The chiefs are crooked & look the other way, the mayors do nothing, the city councilors do nothing, the justice system lets cops off light. There is a systemic-wide problem.

The *alternative* is to *downsize* police departments so that their presence and potential to kill is likewise lessened.

But then you still have to have the law enforced somehow. I think we need major reform in police oversight, transparency, accountability in wrongdoings. We see video of some of these cops hiding their nametags and badge numbers during the protests, this should be a fireable offense.

We need social workers or whatnot responding to mental health crisis and domestic disputes, we need more female cops in order to respond to domestic disputes because men are less threatened by them & they can de-escalate, we need more minority cops working in minority communities. We need much better education and training for police. We need justice system reform etc etc. This shit takes money, which is probably one barrier.

[ckaihatsu]

The *alternative* is to *downsize* police departments so that their presence and potential to kill is likewise lessened.

But then you still have to have the law enforced somehow. I think we need major reform in police oversight, transparency, accountability in wrongdoings. We see video of some of these cops hiding their nametags and badge numbers during the protests, this should be a fireable offense.

We need social workers or whatnot responding to mental health crisis and domestic disputes, we need more female cops in order to respond to domestic disputes because men are less threatened by them & they can de-escalate, we need more minority cops working in minority communities. We need much better education and training for police. We need justice system reform etc etc. This shit takes money, which is probably one barrier.

Which is more important? People's *lives*, or bourgeois laws / norms -- ?

You're proposing the very *opposite* of downsizing the police, which means that those cops who *do* kill will be *less* likely to be prosecuted because the system of money will want to *retain* job positions and personnel, as bureaucracies do, like a giant slush fund.

You're sounding *very* hypocritical in saying one thing -- reforms -- but then calling for an economic approach that would enable the *opposite* of reform, increased funding for increased *institutionalization* of the police departments.

Rewarding police departments with funding regardless of prosecution of killer cops, is money spent that *can't* go to the non-policing social reforms that you *say* should be done, as for social workers.

[Unthinking Majority]

Which is more important? People's *lives*, or bourgeois laws / norms -- ?

You're proposing the very *opposite* of downsizing the police, which means that those cops who *do* kill will be *less* likely to be prosecuted because the system of money will want to *retain* job positions and personnel, as bureaucracies do, like a giant slush fund.

You're sounding *very* hypocritical in saying one thing -- reforms -- but then calling for an economic approach that would enable the *opposite* of reform, increased funding for increased *institutionalization* of the police departments.

Rewarding police departments with funding regardless of prosecution of killer cops, is money spent that *can't* go to the non-policing social reforms that you *say* should be done, as for social workers.

I'm clearly not for rewarding police departments if I want to jail, sue, or fire any cop or police chief or mayor etc. that breaks the law or is a witness to lawbreaking & does nothing.

With police reform, we need 2 things:
1. significant reduction of illegal acts and abuse of power by police as much as possible. In other words, ensuring police follow the rule of law, which is the whole problem.
2. society able to prevent & stop criminal activity committed by citizens.

Defunding the police will achieve #1. But if there's not enough police to enforce the rule of law among the general public, defunding could make #2 worse. My guess is the more police officers you have, the more crime decreases (i could be wrong. I assume there's some kind of correlation). My friend had their car stolen. The cops said it's so common that they can't do anything because of lack of resources, unless it shows up abandoned somewhere & its reported. Do you want to hear someone breaking into your house and when you call 9-1-1 it takes the cops an hour to arrive because there's not enough of them?

These issues are complex. We need researchers to research these issues, see how different governments and/or police departments & justice systems across the world deal with crime & policing, and see what works best, then implement them. If there are new ideas, implement them in some jurisdictions and see how they do. If they work, expand it across the country. I'm open to literally any idea & systemic reform as long as it accomplishes #1 and #2

Activists are important because they can highlight important issues and bring them to the attention of the government & demand change, but most activists have surface level knowledge of these issues. They aren't academic researchers or experts in the field, they usually just hear stuff in the news and repeat it. That's not how policy should be written.

[ckaihatsu]

I'm clearly not for rewarding police departments if I want to jail, sue, or fire any cop or police chief or mayor etc. that breaks the law or is a witness to lawbreaking & does nothing.

With police reform, we need 2 things:
1. significant reduction of illegal acts and abuse of power by police as much as possible. In other words, ensuring police follow the rule of law, which is the whole problem.
2. society able to prevent & stop criminal activity committed by citizens.

Defunding the police will achieve #1. But if there's not enough police to enforce the rule of law among the general public, defunding could make #2 worse. My guess is the more police officers you have, the more crime decreases (i could be wrong. I assume there's some kind of correlation). My friend had their car stolen. The cops said it's so common that they can't do anything because of lack of resources, unless it shows up abandoned somewhere & its reported. Do you want to hear someone breaking into your house and when you call 9-1-1 it takes the cops an hour to arrive because there's not enough of them?

These issues are complex. We need researchers to research these issues, see how different governments and/or police departments & justice systems across the world deal with crime & policing, and see what works best, then implement them. If there are new ideas, implement them in some jurisdictions and see how they do. If they work, expand it across the country. I'm open to literally any idea & systemic reform as long as it accomplishes #1 and #2

Activists are important because they can highlight important issues and bring them to the attention of the government & demand change, but most activists have surface level knowledge of these issues. They aren't academic researchers or experts in the field, they usually just hear stuff in the news and repeat it. That's not how policy should be written.

Why do you make it seem as though this is so *mysterious*?

*Thousands* of people have been killed by cops over the decades and centuries -- isn't *that* a more-pressing crime issue than stolen cars or house invasions?

You need to get your priorities straight.

[Unthinking Majority]

Why do you make it seem as though this is so *mysterious*?

*Thousands* of people have been killed by cops over the decades and centuries -- isn't *that* a more-pressing crime issue than stolen cars or house invasions?

You need to get your priorities straight.

Saying "the solution is to just get rid of the police" or "drastically reduce the police" is a ridiculous idea. It fixes one problem and creates another.

When there's nobody to enforce the law, people get away with criminal shit and then people take the law into their own hands. Do you think overall that will be good for black people in America? Do you think that drugs, shootings, and gang activity etc may increase in a lot of these communities if there's nobody to prevent it from happening. I'm sure you know what a power vacuum is? I hate the stupid Iraq War, but people wanted the US military out of Iraq in the late 2000's, so Obama removed them, but then ISIS moved into the vacuum. Bush's troop surge worked, but his initial invasion & removal of Saddam created vacuums & caused hell. Shit is complex.

Everyone on the left shits on the Clinton crime bill. Well after it was implemented crime decreased significantly over the decade. Then look at the miraculous drops in crime in NYC when Giuliani become mayor, compared to the crime-infested craphole NYC was in the 1980's. Arresting criminals works, it reduces crime, it just does. That doesn't mean the crime bill was perfect or lots people haven't been locked up for dumb reasons (ie: small marijuana possession).
https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/w9061.html

I don't understand why we can't find solutions so we can't have both #1 and #2.

[ckaihatsu]

Saying "the solution is to just get rid of the police" or "drastically reduce the police" is a ridiculous idea. It fixes one problem and creates another.

When there's nobody to enforce the law, people get away with criminal shit and then people take the law into their own hands. Do you think overall that will be good for black people in America? Do you think that drugs, shootings, and gang activity etc may increase in a lot of these communities if there's nobody to prevent it from happening. I'm sure you know what a power vacuum is? I hate the stupid Iraq War, but people wanted the US military out of Iraq in the late 2000's, so Obama removed them, but then ISIS moved into the vacuum. Bush's troop surge worked, but his initial invasion & removal of Saddam created vacuums & caused hell. Shit is complex.

Everyone on the left shits on the Clinton crime bill. Well after it was implemented crime decreased significantly over the decade. Then look at the miraculous drops in crime in NYC when Giuliani become mayor, compared to the crime-infested craphole NYC was in the 1980's. Arresting criminals works, it reduces crime, it just does. That doesn't mean the crime bill was perfect or lots people haven't been locked up for dumb reasons (ie: small marijuana possession).
https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/w9061.html

I don't understand why we can't find solutions so we can't have both #1 and #2.

So the price of empire is a thousand dead people, signed-off by the government, every year.

*Or* we could just bring back the gladiator arena and that way people would be *entertained* as well, for the same death toll.

You're obviously pro-state -- are you pro-War-on-Drugs or can we finally just *legalize* everything and cut out the black markets and use the freed-up cop money for the social-worker-intervention thing instead, for those few who go overboard? Is the black market in *drugs* worth *that* body count every year? Remember, the country finally made *alcohol* legal again, after the Prohibition failure.

Of course I'm anti-ISIS, but why did the U.S. *support* the Islamists early-on with weapons, through Turkey, and through the FSA? (I got links if you need them.)

Saddam was going to establish a non-U.S.-petrodollar oil bourse, so that was a bridge too far for the CIA. And now the U.S. is hijacking Iranian oil shipments to Venezuela. Still pro-state, or do you want to argue for 'free markets' right about now?

How about we raise the floor for everyone, with government-guaranteed food and housing (etc.), so that any business-related social transgressions are forced to be more blatant, and not for mere 'survival' -- ?

[Unthinking Majority]

You're obviously pro-state -- are you pro-War-on-Drugs or can we finally just *legalize* everything and cut out the black markets and use the freed-up cop money for the social-worker-intervention thing instead, for those few who go overboard? Is the black market in *drugs* worth *that* body count every year? Remember, the country finally made *alcohol* legal again, after the Prohibition failure.

I would legalize drugs and treat its use as a mental health problem.

I don't like being controlled by government with rules, but if i'm not controlled, that means the guy across the street isn't controlled either, and can stab me or rape my children if they want. And the only way for me to stop them is to carry a gun. That IMO would lead to even worse outcomes, vigilante justice etc. I don't believe in that, or the 2nd amendment. So society has rules.

Saddam was going to establish a non-U.S.-petrodollar oil bourse, so that was a bridge too far for the CIA. And now the U.S. is hijacking Iranian oil shipments to Venezuela. Still pro-state, or do you want to argue for 'free markets' right about now?

I'm not for neoliberalism, or free-markets, or military imperialism.

How about we raise the floor for everyone, with government-guaranteed food and housing (etc.), so that any business-related social transgressions are forced to be more blatant, and not for mere 'survival' -- ?

How about we just take a crap ton of money from the rich and just give it to everyone else. People will be able to take care of their own food and housing then, no need for government to do it for them. The system needs to work for everyone, not just the rich. It needs massive reform.

[ckaihatsu]

I would legalize drugs and treat its use as a mental health problem.

I don't like being controlled by government with rules, but if i'm not controlled, that means the guy across the street isn't controlled either, and can stab me or rape my children if they want. And the only way for me to stop them is to carry a gun. That IMO would lead to even worse outcomes, vigilante justice etc. I don't believe in that, or the 2nd amendment. So society has rules.


I'm not for neoliberalism, or free-markets, or military imperialism.


How about we just take a crap ton of money from the rich and just give it to everyone else. People will be able to take care of their own food and housing then, no need for government to do it for them. The system needs to work for everyone, not just the rich. It needs massive reform.

Okay, I've heard all of this from you before, but what *gets* at me is why it takes me to *press* you for you to finally delineate this line?

It seems like you'd rather fuck around as your default.

You haven't mentioned AOC or Medicare For All, or anything that would lend credibility to your now-professed classic liberal line.

Do you have any objections to collective bargaining? Any comment on the current events in Belarus?

[Unthinking Majority]

Okay, I've heard all of this from you before, but what *gets* at me is why it takes me to *press* you for you to finally delineate this line?

It doesn't have to do with cop reform or Portland.

You haven't mentioned AOC or Medicare For All, or anything that would lend credibility to your now-professed classic liberal line.

See above.

I'm in favor of universal medicare. The evidence around the world supports it.

Do you have any objections to collective bargaining? Any comment on the current events in Belarus?

I support unions if that's what those workers want. It helps to better equalize power between employers and workers, which is good. I support freedom of association, which includes unions.

I don't support destruction of someone's property and looting because others (cops) did unjust things, or mayors who refuse to do anything about it. If protestors only tore up police stations, cop cars, city buildings etc at least that would make more sense.

[maz]

A mob of what looks like mostly black women are harassing and terrorizing residential areas in Portland. Why?