[Warrior Monk]

So how come no true follower of Christ has ever murdered another human being?

[QatzelOk]

There's no such thing as a 'true follower of Christ' so it's a moot point.

[Todd D.]

So how come no true follower of Christ has ever murdered another human being?

Because that is self defeating? That's like saying "How come no virgin has ever had sex?".

I never said that it was common sense that everybody should have a gun. What I said was that it was common sense that guns control laws take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals don't care if they are breaking the law, that's what makes them criminals. Just like the drug laws, if there is a demand for guns, then the criminals will be able to get their hands on them. As a matter of intent, do you think that if someone is willing to rob a bank or God forbid assault and kill somebody, that they are going to be worried that the gun that they are carrying will give them an extra 10 years in prison? I doubt it.

[Warrior Monk]

There's no such thing as a 'true follower of Christ' so it's a moot point.

Oh really...

I consider myself a follower of Christ. I've never murdered anyone and I own a handgun.

[Todd D.]

A true follower of Christ is very subjective. Fundamentalists say that Mormons and Catholics are not true followers of Christ. Conservative Catholics say vice versa. Who is right? Ultimately I would suggest that in order to be a follower of Christ, you have to follow what you believe His message was. I don't think that anybody can tell you that you are wrong if you are doing that.

[QatzelOk]

There's no such thing as a 'true follower of Christ' so it's a moot point.

[Todd D.]

Thanks for repeating yourself. We all saw it the first time though, and I would still disagree with you.

[QatzelOk]

Sorry ToddD. It was a technical glitch, not a zealotry one.
That being said, it is easy to say 'a true Moslem' or a 'true Christian' is perfect because that is how you define your religion: as being perfect, like your God. But give me an example of a 'true follower of Christ." You know, the one who never kills? There are none. It's an impossible concept based on dungeons and dragons type superstition mixed with some useful spiritual guidance.
But it's easy to say 'Everyone should be a perfect moslem and then there wouldn't be any more war or famine." Problem being, unlike communism or socialism, these religious texts have their limits as to how applicable they are socially. Though they all contain some useful moral building blocks, they are sadly lacking when it comes to linking different spiritual traditions. Know what I mean by this? The 3 big Western religions 'Judaism-Christianity-Islam' are big on talk about equality and goodness, but fall short on tolerance of other religions. So they are not perfect. So they are not God. Sorry. But I guess Nietsche hasn't made it to Wal-Mart yet.
"If only everyone was like Barney, we wouldn't have any more wars."

[Warrior Monk]

The Commandment is not Thou shalt not kill in Hebrew but Thou shalt not murder. There is a difference.


[Mod. Edit: Don't think for even a second that you're going to get away with that kind of sheer Islamophobia and intolerance in this forum.]

[QatzelOk]

If everyone was a perfect Muslim, all the Jews, Christians, and Atheists would be dead.

Really? What sura[s] is this from? I've read the koran and the bible, and I don't recall the sura about killing jews and christians. In fact, moslems believe that jews and christians will make it to heaven.
Not the case for christians regarding jews or moslems.
Christians created the holocaust, the Crusades, WW1 and 2, not to mention the slaughter of the non-christian natives here in America. And jewish Israel has been teh best killing machine of any small state in history. What religion am I supposed to be afraid of again?

[Todd D.]

Not the case for christians regarding jews or moslems.

That's not true. While conservative fundamentalists believe that you must have Jesus to go to heaven, officially teh Catholic Church teaches that Jews and Muslims both can make it to heaven. This is also the case with most the mainstream denominations of Christianity.

Christians created the holocaust, the Crusades, WW1 and 2, not to mention the slaughter of the non-christian natives here in America.

I must take issue with this. Christians are in no way responsible for the Holocaust. Hitler and the Reich were sorcerors and occultists, based on old Norse and early Northern European religions. Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, as shown by later in the war when he began to intern the Catholics as well. As for World War I, not really sure where that came from, as that was one of the most atheistic wars ever. It was mostly based on the alliances that had been formed. If there was one group to blame, it would be the Muslims, not the Christians. As for the Crusades, Christianity does take a brunt of the blame, but I believe that Islam shoulders some as well. I would suggest that intolerance, not necesarily the religions themselves, are responsible for the Crusades though.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

What religion am I supposed to be afraid of again?

IMO, None of them- human nature is what you should accept and react to, not the elaborate (or not) beliefs the human mind has created to pacify or justify those base instincts. The fear comes when we completely disregard these taught ideas and jump into the philosophical "fire" so to speak. Can we overcome that or shall we remain a prisoner of those things that we allow ourselves to be a prisoner of?

[Warrior Monk]

[Mod. Edit: Don't think for even a second that you're going to get away with that kind of sheer Islamophobia and intolerance in this forum.]

And yet Christophobia and intolerance seem to be welcome...hmm. Why am I not surprised there is a double standard?

Christians created the holocaust

[briansmith]

[Mod. Edit: Don't think for even a second that you're going to get away with that kind of sheer Islamophobia and intolerance in this forum.]

And yet Christophobia and intolerance seem to be welcome...hmm. Why am I not surprised there is a double standard?

Christians created the holocaust

QatzelOk was responding to your Islamophobic statement. He responded before I had the chance to edit it out. Both your edited statement and his response exist in the same post. Any kind of religious hatred you want to find is in his post, as a result. At least it's "fair and balanced."

[Warrior Monk]

What sura[s] is this from? I've read the koran and the bible, and I don't recall the sura about killing jews and christians.

The Koran teaches:

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship will become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51

The Lord Jesus Christ teaches:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy...but I say love your enemies..."Matthew 5:43-44

The Koran teaches

O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

In fact, moslems believe that jews and christians will make it to heaven.

What Suras is that from?

[Todd D.]

Warrior Monk, what you need to understand is that Protestant Christianity is really the only religion that believes that all you need is one book to understand everything. Even Catholicism teaches that tradition and church law also guide the followers of Christ. Likewise with Islam, there are teachings outside of the Koran that some sects have accepted as Dogma, while others have not. Your interpretation of Holy Wars, while accepted by the more fundamentalists Islamic sects, are also interpreted differently by the more liberal ones.

I could quote you a hundred verses from the Old Testament that condone what by today's standards would be barbacy, but most Jews have obviously taken a different interpretation towards these passages. Likewise with Christianity, I know of very few denominations today that tie stones around the neck of child molestors and drown them in the bottom of a lake. It's all about your interpretation.

[QatzelOk]

WarMonk,
As Todd D implied, it is an easy excercise to go through the koran, bible or even THE Cat In The HAT looking for scary quotes and then printing them out of context. But here is a quote from Surah 2. 62 that might put your little faith-filled heart to rest.

Those who believe in the Qur'an, and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Of course, I don't believe in The Last Day or the other myths of Christianity-Judaism-Islam, but what a relief to know we're all saved in their book at least. Does the bible mention that this great arab prophet is coming soon to a temple near you?