The U.S. needs a fundamental, large-scale system change. The old model is failing. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14711581
A fundamental change of system. Not reform. Not another patch to buy more time.

There is a new organization forming to discuss and address and organize on this subject. I'm posting this because I think it could be a good source of well-thought-out ideas to discuss. It strikes me as valuable because it is not just another opinion piece but a needed organization that is working on something very important and inviting us all to participate and share our inputs.

Let me quote a few lines from their intro:

"TIME TO FACE THE DEPTH OF THE SYSTEMIC CRISIS

"There are political-economic system models that deliver superior social, economic and ecological outcomes

"What's at stake:
* We are at or near the bottom among advanced democracies across a score of key indicators of national well-being—including relative poverty, inequality, education, social mobility, health, environment, militarization, democracy, and more.

* We have fundamental problems because of fundamental flaws in our economic and political system. The crisis now unfolding in so many ways across our country amounts to a systemic crisis.

* Today’s political economic system is not programmed to secure the wellbeing of people, place and planet. Instead, its priorities are corporate profits, the growth of GDP, and the projection of national power.

* Large-scale system change is needed but has until recently been constrained by a continuing lack of imagination concerning social, economic and political alternatives. There are alternatives that can lead to the systemic change we need.

"What's next?"

“It is time to explore genuine alternatives and new models—“the next system.” It is time to debate what it will take to move our country to a very different place, one where outcomes that are truly sustainable, equitable, and democratic are commonplace.

* Let’s begin a real conversation—locally, nationally, and at all levels in between—on how to respond to the profound challenge of our time in history.

* We need to think through and then build a new political economy that takes us beyond the current system that is failing all around us. Systemic problems require systemic solutions.

* We must think boldly about what is required to deal with the systemic difficulties facing the United States

* An extraordinary amount of experimentation is taking place in communities across the United States—and around the world. These sophisticated and thoughtful proposals for transformative change suggest that it is possible to build a new and better America

* Those of us signing this statement are committed to working towards these ends.

http://thenextsystem.org/




And their intro video is:
#14711738
I'm all for an economic system with a strong safety net that is pro-environment, I just don't see why the creators of this political movement chose to shroud their beliefs in platitudes and evasive language. People can tell when they're being tricked, and no one is going to want a movement that doesn't state what its intentions are or what its goals are up front. My advice would be to get to the issues first and then provide your analysis. Otherwise, it comes off as a sales pitch.
#14711817
SpecialOlympian wrote:I stopped about 55 seconds in when the video said 1/6th of AMERICA's population is going hungry.

That's straight up Hunger Games shit.

Yeahright. So it's not 1/6. It's actually 1/6.5 or 48 million people who are food insecure.

"48.1 million Americans lived in food insecure households" - http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in ... uckgo.com/
#14711819
LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX wrote:I'm all for an economic system with a strong safety net that is pro-environment, I just don't see why the creators of this political movement chose to shroud their beliefs in platitudes and evasive language. People can tell when they're being tricked, and no one is going to want a movement that doesn't state what its intentions are or what its goals are up front. My advice would be to get to the issues first and then provide your analysis. Otherwise, it comes off as a sales pitch.

Yeah, I found their language to be high-level analytical and "clinical" but that doesn't come across as a sales pitch to me.
#14711914
SpecialOlympian wrote:It defines it as 48.1 million at "very low food insecurity." I have no idea what that means. I would like to know how they define "very low food insecurity."

You really don't seem to want to know about this. First of all it doesn't say "low" food insecurity. You added "low" and it reverses the meaning. Secondly, the definition of food insecurity is all over the web for anyone who wants to know what it is. "1 in 7 Americans struggles to get enough to eat. In fact, hunger or food insecurity exists in virtually every community in the United States." http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in ... uckgo.com/
#14711920
SpecialOlympian wrote:It defines it as 48.1 million at "very low food insecurity." I have no idea what that means. I would like to know how they define "very low food insecurity."

You said "I stopped about 55 seconds in when the video said 1/6th of AMERICA's population is going hungry." But I searched from 40 to 1:50 and couldn't find "1/6" spoken anywhere. I did hear "45 to 50 million people are hungry" and the statistics bear that out. So I don't think you have a case.
#14711921
Godstud wrote:Food insecurity is NOT starving.

Where did you hear somebody mention "starving"? I think some people here are reaching to reword issues in unreasonable and extreme terms so as to make them look unreasonable. But if we stay with the actual statements we have a different picture, --one that is real.
#14711965
I went to the website and, yes, it says "very low food insecurity."

If you're going to posit that 40+ million AMERICANS are in a state of "very low food insecurity" then I don't think I'm placing a large burden on you by asking you to define what "very low food insecurity" is.

Here is a picture of the website you linked me to. I have made some artful and tasteful edits.

Image
#14728068
The Next System Project now has four published proposals to review. They range from proposals for a mixed economy including both capitalist enterprises and socialist ones by Henning Meyer, to a strictly modern socialist form by Richard Wolff.

Actually some like the Henning Meyer proposal see effective change taking place globally all at once, which is interesting I think. It overcomes the occasional objection that such changes away from a capitalist system is dependent on demographics and culture.

There is quite a bit of confusion and skepticism about the socialist models in our society. Richard Wolff offers significant clarification and detail about his proposal. I found it very interesting and informative.

http://thenextsystem.org/new-systems...and-proposals/

This is impressive. It is clearly not a bunch of amateurs!

Volume 3 includes four new proposals:
http://thenextsystem.org/new-systems-series-volume-3/

This I see as an opportunity to find out what leading thinkers are considering for the future.
#14728176
I think it's a good thing that people are starting to throw ideas out there. But I had to note this one:

Senter wrote:* Let’s begin a real conversation—locally, nationally, and at all levels in between—on how to respond to the profound challenge of our time in history.

This sounds like local, direct democracy. In Libya, they had local, direct democracy until they were bombed. Local townhall type of meetings, where anyone can attend, were set up, under Gaddafi, to allow the population to make local decisions.

It also sounds like cooperation. In Yugoslavia, they had a cooperative economy before they were bombed. Most of the factories in Yugoslavia were owned by the employees, who would meet and make local, direct administrative decisions. Local democracy.

So before America can get any semblance of direct democracy and cooperation, perhaps your government could stop killing everyone who successfully sets this kind of thing up?

Senter, aren't you a bit afraid of being accused of being a genocidal anti-semitic terror-supporter just before one of Obama's drones takes you out? This is, after all, where America sits in relationship to social progress in the 21st Century: America destroys it wherever it occurs.
#14728216
Yes, the old model is failing. It was failing in the Panics of 1797, 1837, 1857, 1873, 1893, and 1907. It was failing in the Depressions of 1807, 1815-1821, 1920-21, 1929-39. It was failing in the stagflation of the 70's and in the Great Recession of today.

The system will be failing tomorrow and it will be failing 20 years from now.

You can resist, but resistance is a part of the system - by resisting, you reinforce its power. Occupy Wall Street and the Basket of Deplorables have one thing in common: they lend strength to the system they believe they are challenging.
#14728376
quetzalcoatl wrote:Yes, the old model is failing. It was failing in the Panics of 1797, 1837, 1857, 1873, 1893, and 1907. It was failing in the Depressions of 1807, 1815-1821, 1920-21, 1929-39. It was failing in the stagflation of the 70's and in the Great Recession of today.

The system will be failing tomorrow and it will be failing 20 years from now.

You can resist, but resistance is a part of the system - by resisting, you reinforce its power. Occupy Wall Street and the Basket of Deplorables have one thing in common: they lend strength to the system they believe they are challenging.

This reactionary trope is easily deflated with a dose of reality.

Virtually all civilizations have driven themselves extinct, with the exception of Egyptian civilization. It was kept alive for thousands of years by the almost yearly great floods that annually destroyed all the infrastructure that the elite had had set up. This meant that the flawed technology and ideas of the Egyptian elite was never allowed to become so encrusted in their society that it eventually killed them all with no remorse, like most social systems do.

Likewise, France has survived as a republic with a distinct culture to this day by killing its entire elite every few generations. This is similar to the floods of the Nile, except France's great rivers can't do the trick so masses of screaming, angry people do it instead.

If we keep doing what we're doing now, as a society, we will no survive. And survival is much more important than gaining prestige points on some arbitrary social register, which is what we have now.
#14728566
QatzelOk wrote:If we keep doing what we're doing now, as a society, we will no survive. And survival is much more important than gaining prestige points on some arbitrary social register, which is what we have now.


True enough. And obviously, we cannot continue what we are doing now - real world limits will prevent that. The interesting question is whether we will stop 'doing what we're doing now' in time to recover. What's at stake is large scale industrial civilization, not the survival of the species itself (although I could be mistaken).

What form should such a civilization take, Qatzel? What would you like to see happen?
#14728574
Its funny but I was just looking back at the end of the old system Feudalism, in 1350. Really the new system, the new model, or what you refer to as the old model strikes me as performing rather well. We've had five hundred years of this so called Capitalism. Just lately, the last fifty years or so it seems to have been doing really well, both compared to Feudalism and Communism.

The thing is Capitalism just doesn't seem to have crises any more. When was the last time Britain or the US experienced a real crisis like the Black death or the Holdomor?
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