SolarCross wrote:@The Immortal Goon
Okay I don't know about that, I'll believe it when I see it.
One thing you say that I think is a bit worth quibbling over and even tangentially related to this thread, is when you say "the right always.. ". How long is always? and who and what makes a rightwing person and also necessarily who or what makes a left wing person?
The left/right praxis is useful because it works in degrees instead of absolutes. Stalin was a moderate within the Bolshevik Party, but routinely sided with the right wing of the party. The right wing of the Soviet Union, of course, was well to the left of the left wing in most countries.
You know of course how this spacial metaphor first came to be applied to ideological discords. During the French revolution, some people were for the King and by extension the "ancien regime" of which he was head and other people were for the more revolutionary republican point of view. Representatives of these two opposing factions sat in the National Assembly and it so happened that the King's men sat on the right hand side of the president and the others sat on the left. So the right then were monarchists and the left were republicans. Those on the left broadly came from what in feudal times were called the third estate, the men of commerce. The kind of people that up until the fall of the berlin wall we are encouraged to call capitalists and "rightwing" with the "leftwing" being those that wanted to destroy them, hamper them or just shake them down.
And it keeps going. The Fuelliants that constituted the left wing above, became right wingers in the time of La Montagne; and they were soon to the right of the Jacobins; and the Jacobins were to the right of the Enrages.
The left/right dynamic works because it's a sliding scale like this.
The left vs right shit fight of say the cold war was a discord of a distinctly different one to that of the french revolution and even it doesn't even apply anymore because since the fall of the Soviet Union that discord basically fizzled out.
It certainly works, and is still soused routinely for this reason. We are not so special and unique to have developed in some new way that can't be explained.
The current discord is over political correctness: how rude people are allowed to be in public and to whom. (Well there are other related issues like for europeans immigration is the bigger question.) Over the political correctness discord those that are for a certain brand of it have taken the label "left", (much to the annoyance of coldwar lefties like Decky), while those spitting their dummies out over not being able call a spade a spade have taken the title right wing.
I would be curious if you could find anybody that openly advocates, "political correctness." I'm not sure that I've ever heard anybody say anything nice about the concept, let alone claim it as their own.
So what ties right with right throughout the ages?
What does a Dragoon loyal in his service to the King have in common with a merchant banker of thatcher's britain or with a 4chan bad boy of the 21st century? Nothing really.
Typically the right in parliamentary democracies correspond roughly toBurke.
That is to say, a focus on perceived notions of personal liberty and responsibility. but because it's a sliding scale, this isn't always true.
So what ties the left with the left throughout the ages?
What does a jewish jacobin wool merchant have in common with a sulky trade unionist of Thatcher's Britain or with a latte slurping social justice warrior of the 21st century? Nothing really.
In each of your cases they oppose imperialism and strive for greater equality. Typically in a parliamentary system you might think of Gladstone.
The measures keep shifting as different disagreements eclipse others in importance. With this in mind are marxists even leftwing anymore given that republicanism was once left wing but now is not?
Yes, we are still left wing. Just as the Enreges were. The measure shifting is the whole point as to why it's a useful system.
Going back to before the French rev, how would the left vs right spacial metaphor fall down around the catholic vs protestant shit fight? Would catholics be right wing or left wing? What of the protestants? Left or right?
In the context of the French Revolution, the Catholics tended toward the right. If you wanted to call the Cult of the Supreme Being Protestant, I guess they'd be to the right.
But we only know that because of their interaction in the political world. Since, again, the left/right description is used to convey where something is in relation to something else, one cannot say Catholics are innately right wing; any more than one can say Bukarin was a ringwinger in every circumstance.
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