[jimjam]

LOL You know this thread is spiraling like a toilet bowl flush when James Klaper's quotes are considered sanguine and factual.

I don't understand what's so bad about Clapper other than partisan motivated thinking. Seems to me he has not only had a front row seat on the show but has some pretty impressive credentials.

Do you think that Russia did not meddle in the election?

Clapper not Klapper.

I never intended this thread to present a predetermined conclusion of Trump collaboration with Russia or a predetermined conclusion about anything. It is simply a chronicle of events surrounding this historical soap opera which sometimes veers in unexpected and unrelated directions (witness Blackjack's and my recent comments on weight gain/loss). But that is half the fun, I think. Along those lines, I almost froze my ass off while jogging by Casco Bay today. I am even on record as saying that I think Trump will avoid having Russiagate pinned on him.

[Finfinder]

I don't understand what's so bad about Clapper other than partisan motivated thinking. Seems to me he has not only had a front row seat on the show but has some pretty impressive credentials.

Do you think that Russia did not meddle in the election?

Clapper not Klapper.

I never intended this thread to present a predetermined conclusion of Trump collaboration with Russia or a predetermined conclusion about anything. It is simply a chronicle of events surrounding this historical soap opera which sometimes veers in unexpected and unrelated directions (witness Blackjack's and my recent comments on weight gain/loss). But that is half the fun, I think. Along those lines, I almost froze my ass off while jogging by Casco Bay today. I am even on record as saying that I think Trump will avoid having Russiagate pinned on him.

Clapper is a prolific liar makes Bill Clinton sound like George Washington.

[jimjam]

Clapper is a prolific liar makes Bill Clinton sound like George Washington.

I didn't know this. I googled "Clapper/liar" and, it seems others agree with you. In fact I had never heard of the guy. Lies are so prolific in the American scene that they are taken for truth these days.

Do you think Russia did not meddle in the election?

[One Degree]

I didn't know this. I googled "Clapper/liar" and, it seems others agree with you. In fact I had never heard of the guy. Lies are so prolific in the American scene that they are taken for truth these days.

Do you think Russia did not meddle in the election?

Wrong question. Why would anyone think they didn’t? Nothing has come out that should be unexpected. Using their twitter feeds as an example of interference shows how ridiculous they are. My guess is you could come up with a much better case for Canada interfering illegally.
At most, it should have continued to be part of normal clandestine operations.

[Finfinder]

I didn't know this. I googled "Clapper/liar" and, it seems others agree with you. In fact I had never heard of the guy. Lies are so prolific in the American scene that they are taken for truth these days.

Do you think Russia did not meddle in the election?

My friend I think you are curled up like a possum playing dead and your nose is growing like Pinocchio. I suppose maybe they did and maybe they did not who really knows for sure. Probably not any more than Obama and past presidents meddled in foreign elections. I certainly think it’s time for the Democrats to move on from this and their obstructionist ways and stand for something in our country. This whole process had discredit the party more than likely beyond repair.

[jimjam]

My friend I think you are curled up like a possum playing dead and your nose is growing like Pinocchio. I suppose maybe they did and maybe they did not who really knows for sure. Probably not any more than Obama and past presidents meddled in foreign elections. I certainly think it’s time for the Democrats to move on from this and their obstructionist ways and stand for something in our country. This whole process had discredit the party more than likely beyond repair.

I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican nor a liberal nor a conservative. There is an unfortunate dynamics dominating America today where such labels are quickly assigned to anyone who has an opinion that may diverge from that of the person assigning the label. This simply implies that Americans are incapable of thinking for themselves. If you are a "liberal" that's it. No need to think. Here's your agenda. We'll do the thinking for you. Ditto if you are a "conservative". No empirical thinking required. We'll take care of that for you. America needs a leader who can achieve power by bringing her people together not one who employs the age old tatic of divide and conquer. I see no such leader anywhere at this time.

Did Russia hack our election? Of course they did. They are very very good at this stuff Putin was a colonel in the Russian secret service and knows full well how effective this new kind of warfare is. I have studied Russia for decades. I am presently reading about my 6th book on the Russian revolution. I have been to Russia and had my hotel room searched while I was out. They are our enemies and, excepting world war 2, always have been in the 20th and 21st century. Did you happen to catch Putin's presentation a couple of months ago illustrating nuclear warheads raining down on Florida? Shit....looks like one headed right for Cape Coral . To think Russia did not interfere in our election process is dangerous naivety in the extreme. ........... Sorry, I got going and couldn't stop . Could be that I am actually patriotic.

[blackjack21]

America needs a leader who can achieve power by bringing her people together not one who employs the age old tatic of divide and conquer. I see no such leader anywhere at this time.

Why do you think a "uniter" is needed? The age-old tactic is competitive, and that's the nature of politics and nature itself. I think the establishment needs a comeuppance, so as much as I think Trump is a blowhard, he's exactly the person for the job right now in my opinion--speaking as someone who preferred Senator Ted Cruz, for his own roguish ways.

Did Russia hack our election? Of course they did.

Yet, you have a British spy paid by Hillary Clinton's campaign, and you simply believe all that rhetoric? Even the deep state indicated that there was no evidence of tampering with the polls. Obama himself mocked such an idea when he thought Hillary was going to win.

They are very very good at this stuff Putin was a colonel in the Russian secret service and knows full well how effective this new kind of warfare is.

Ok. So what other elections has he "hacked"?

I have studied Russia for decades. I am presently reading about my 6th book on the Russian revolution. I have been to Russia and had my hotel room searched while I was out.

Did you do your surveillance detection routes? They follow you around too, in case you didn't know.

Did you happen to catch Putin's presentation a couple of months ago illustrating nuclear warheads raining down on Florida?

Oh my! Graphics. We do this all the time to other countries. McCain was known for singing "Bomb, bomb, bomb! Bomb, bomb Iran!" to the Beach Boys "Barbara Ann." Russia is not going to nuke Florida. The are only a few places from a military perspective worth nuking, like Pensacola's Navy presence, and maybe Cape Canaveral to thwart space warfare ops.

To think Russia did not interfere in our election process is dangerous naivety in the extreme.

How do you feel about Obama's administration overthrowing the democratically-elected government of Ukraine and precipitating a civil war, leading to the Russian annexation of Ukraine? How do you feel about the US invasion of Iraq? How do you feel about the US destabilizing the government of Libya, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, etc.? We do this all the time jimjam. Nobody is being naive here, except people who think the US gets to do this kind of stuff and it won't be done back to us.

Anybody who thinks Christopher Steele is "former" MI-6 is dangerously naive too. The UK government did not want Trump in power and did what they could to thwart his election. The Democrats had great fun running around saying, "the Europeans think we're a laughing stock." So? Does that mean that they get to interfere in our elections? The Chinese have been funneling cash to the DNC for decades now. Do you believe what Gore said with respect to Charlie Tri?

1996 United States campaign finance controversy

Where was Clinton from? Arkansas. What major corporation was headquartered there? Wal Mart. Which president gave Most Favored Nation trading status to China? Bill Clinton. Who ran against him claiming there would be a "giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the United States? Ross Perot. Who was also affiliated with the Reform Party? Donald Trump.

Why would an ordinary American be afraid of a "trade war" with China? They wouldn't. A billionaire engaged in labor arbitrage would certainly be afraid. If they happened to own a newspaper like the Washington Post, they might use that to spread fears of a trade war and bash Donald Trump.

America doesn't need a leader who can bring people together. It needs a leader who can unite enough people to seriously damage the establishment who sells out the working and middle classes of their own country to line their own pockets. The closest thing we have to that right now is Donald Trump. Of all the candidates that would do that, Trump is the best one right now. The establishment wants him, and anyone with his political ideas regardless of table manners, to be stopped too. They want to continue what Perot characterized as the "giant sucking sound." The establishment won't get away with it this time, because they alienated the American people in the process. So their influence is very limited now, in spite of a massive media reach.

Obama was a big mistake for them, and they will be paying for it for a long time to come.

MAGA

[Zamuel]

Russia is not going to nuke Florida. The are only a few places from a military perspective worth nuking, like Pensacola's Navy presence, and maybe Cape Canaveral to thwart space warfare ops.

Multiple warheads, along Florida's coastline, will poison both the eastern seaboard and the south eastern gulf coast. It's called the "Atlantic Current."

Zam

[jimjam]

I have noticed two methods of responding to someone's posting that generally degrade the debate and, sometimes, discourage any response:

The "two wrongs make a right" thinking. ie. Trump did xyz. Well look, Hillary/Obama/James Garfield also did XYZ..... therefore it's ok. Rather than presenting a rational argument as to why XYZ is okay/productive.

And the out of context response. Obama was soft on Iran. Yes but he dealt with the realities of global warming.

[Zagadka]

The "two wrongs make a right" thinking. ie. Trump did xyz. Well look, Hillary/Obama/James Garfield also did XYZ..... therefore it's ok.

I refer to those as the "yea but"s. It is striking how often people will reply with something Obama did.

[Beren]

The Russians interfered with elections in Europe too, and they supported people like Trump, so I wonder whether why they would have remained intact with US elections. Due to Trump's foreign policy they've finally got what they wanted.

Macron calls on Russia to work with Europe to end 'difficult period'

[blackjack21]

Do you think that Russia did not meddle in the election?

I don't think they did anything to voting machines or changed the outcome of a single vote. Trump won, because he was a great wild card candidate and Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate representing a tired establishment. I think Russia favored Trump, because they thought him a fool and didn't like Hillary because of sanctions her state department put on Russian oligarchs. Do I think it mattered at all in the election? Not a bit.

The "two wrongs make a right" thinking. ie. Trump did xyz. Well look, Hillary/Obama/James Garfield also did XYZ..... therefore it's ok. Rather than presenting a rational argument as to why XYZ is okay/productive.

I'm not saying "It's all right what Russia did." Although, I think engaging in some sort of moral debate is ludicrous. I'm saying you're upset about Russians patrolling in international waters off the coast while you have a devil-may-care attitude about China running the equivalent of a surprise attack on the scale of Pearl Harbor. Russia is a two-bit player in American domestic politics. When you went for a run on the beach, were you running in American-made shoes, German-made Addidas, or were they made with Chinese child labor? I'm guessing the latter.

My guess is you could come up with a much better case for Canada interfering illegally.

Or Mexico sending 1/5th of its population to the United States... ...Many of them illegally voting in our elections. Note that California hasn't been a two-party state since Reagan's deeply-misguided amnesty for illegal aliens. If we want a country, we need to throw them out. The same people who argue that Russian interference was material are deathly afraid of what will happen if illegal aliens are deported and unable to vote in US elections. The reality jimjam, is that if you want to be a patriot, you need to go for a jog along the Los Angeles river and look at the homeless encampments. You need to jog through East LA. You need to see what the media will never show you. Russia is the least of our concerns.

Besides, Obama made fun of Sarah Palin for her comments on Russia. With Saturday Night Live's spoofs, there are a lot of people who really think that Sarah Palin said, "I can see Russia from my house!" Obama directly said, "The 80's called and they want their foreign policy back" when Romney pointed out the dangers of Russia, while Obama told Dmitry Medvedev that he would have more flexibility after the 2012 election. I don't know who the hell is running the DNC, but even a writer of Soap Operas keeps a journal of all the historical plot twists so they don't screw themselves the way the DNC (and their RNC counterparts) have done with this horribly conceived bit of "Russia hacked the election" propaganda.

Probably not any more than Obama and past presidents meddled in foreign elections.

Well that's just it. The US has been doing this to other countries since time immemorial. The Russian impact on the 2016 election was both nil and irrelevant. What was relevant was the Trump campaign taking on the establishment, who had no problem with decades of other countries influencing US elections, provided it was China, Mexico, Canada, or the EU. They had no problem with it if it had massive deleterious effects for the majority of Americans, provided it was good for America's elite.

I certainly think it’s time for the Democrats to move on from this and their obstructionist ways and stand for something in our country.

I think it's time for Democratic and Republican voters to wake up and realize that these parties do not represent significant enough numbers of Americans to be given so much power any longer. As for the Democrats, I think they should continue harping on Russia and championing Mueller, and I think Mueller should keep at it. As Richard Nixon said, "Always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself." This is funny now. With their hate, they are destroying themselves. All we need to do is maintain composure and stand out of their way while they take themselves down.

Multiple warheads, along Florida's coastline, will poison both the eastern seaboard and the south eastern gulf coast. It's called the "Atlantic Current."

Zam

There is no military reason to do this, which is why it won't be done. Up until the 1980s, it might have made sense to nuke New York City. So much industry is gone from NYC now. The shipping container revolution basically defused the concentration of industrial production that nuclear weapons no longer make sense. Countries like Iran and North Korea can never win wars with nuclear weapons, because war production isn't tightly concentrated in cities any longer. So the rationale for nukes basically doesn't make sense anymore. The Iranians and North Koreans are going after a strategy used to win WWII. That world no longer exists.

Well look, Hillary/Obama/James Garfield also did XYZ..... therefore it's ok. Rather than presenting a rational argument as to why XYZ is okay/productive.

The US decided to push to expand NATO up to Russia's borders during peace time. Naturally, Russia's going to balk at that and understandably so. The US establishment has been pulling that crap since the Bush administration at a minimum--witness the Russian invasion of Georgia, where George Bush could do dick all about it. Another military reality is that the US is militarily spread too thin. We need a much bigger military if we want to fight wars on two fronts and still have a significant deterrent effect on other countries. Instead, since the 1990s, the US has slashed military spending. Clinton gets a lot of the blame for that, but it's a two party thing too. Who cancelled the A-12 attack plane? That was Cheney. Donald Rumsfeld cancelled the Crusasder howitzer system.

I grew up in the Bay Area. San Francisco used to have a major army and navy presence. It's gone. Alameda Naval Airstation is closed. I remember watching A-6 intruders flying around the Bay Area. You'd think we had no air defense to see things today. Moffet NAS is closed, except as serving as an airfield for Silicon Valley billionaires like Larry Ellison and the google boys. Travis AFB is still operational and you can see the C-5s taking off there--they look like they are going perilously slow because they are so big. Once in a very great while an F-18 will fly past my house if trainees get a little too far North of Lemoore NAS.

And the out of context response. Obama was soft on Iran.

It's not out of context. The US interferes in the domestic affairs of other countries ongoingly. We cannot credibly sustain some sort of moral outrage when the same is done to us. What Russia did is pathetic compared to what Mexico has done every year over 20 years. We have a rational case to declare war on Mexico. Yet, we don't do that because of the establishment's labor exploitation practices. I have a Mexican maid and a Mexican gardener.

SNL is sort of a mixed bag compared to its glory days, but this is funny: Saturday Night Live

Yes but he dealt with the realities of global warming.

You mean like mean temperatures declining on average since 1998? Global warming is just another one of their "commanding heights of the global economy" scams. That's why I regularly lament all the global warming propaganda, but I believe I'm the biggest solar power generator on this forum--if you guys understood the tax code, then you'd understand why someone like me gets a tax break from all the idiotic left wing propaganda. At least I have enough class to tell you folks you are being lied to.

I refer to those as the "yea but"s. It is striking how often people will reply with something Obama did.

It's striking how people who start bar fights start whining like little bitches when they get their asses kicked too. That's the US establishment in a nutshell. Hillary deserved to lose. The establishment deserved to lose.

[Zamuel]

There is no military reason to do this, which is why it won't be done.

In the event of a nuclear exchange there are sound military reasons to hit Florida and poison the eastern and southern American coastline. It disables critical American Industries and disrupts shipping. It creates massive problems with population relocation and an appendant logistical nightmare. Not to mention inherent health considerations. It cripples American capabilities.

Zam

[Finfinder]

I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican nor a liberal nor a conservative. There is an unfortunate dynamics dominating America today where such labels are quickly assigned to anyone who has an opinion that may diverge from that of the person assigning the label. This simply implies that Americans are incapable of thinking for themselves. If you are a "liberal" that's it. No need to think. Here's your agenda. We'll do the thinking for you. Ditto if you are a "conservative". No empirical thinking required. We'll take care of that for you. America needs a leader who can achieve power by bringing her people together not one who employs the age old tatic of divide and conquer. I see no such leader anywhere at this time.

Knowing you I believe that however no one could look at the totality of your postings on POFO and come away with the same analysis or understanding.

Did Russia hack our election? Of course they did. They are very very good at this stuff Putin was a colonel in the Russian secret service and knows full well how effective this new kind of warfare is. I have studied Russia for decades. I am presently reading about my 6th book on the Russian revolution. I have been to Russia and had my hotel room searched while I was out. They are our enemies and, excepting world war 2, always have been in the 20th and 21st century. Did you happen to catch Putin's presentation a couple of months ago illustrating nuclear warheads raining down on Florida? Shit....looks like one headed right for Cape Coral . To think Russia did not interfere in our election process is dangerous naivety in the extreme. ........... Sorry, I got going and couldn't stop . Could be that I am actually patriotic.

Is this the first time they did it? Did it make a difference in this election no it did not. Sticking to the actual subject of collusion I have yet to see evidence posted on this thread. Its seems like Mueller your thread has morphed in to something entirely different but not too much from any of the anti threads out there.

[jimjam]

Knowing you I believe that however no one could look at the totality of your postings on POFO and come away with the same analysis or understanding.

Could not agree more. My posts are frequently wacko/extreme. Obviously I do not care for Donald but I post as therapy and devil's advocacy.

Sticking to the actual subject of collusion I have yet to see evidence posted on this thread

agree again. as I have stated, I doubt collusion will be proven. even if it happened, Trump is smart enough to not leave finger prints.

Its seems like Mueller your thread has morphed in to something entirely different but not too much from any of the anti threads out there

agree once more (this is awful ..... we should be insulting each other ). the thread has morphed into Russia gate/ general Trump bashing. but, again, my goal was not to "prove" collusion but to provide a running commentary on the soap opera.

[jimjam]

Hoping to thwart a sophisticated malware system linked to Russia that has infected hundreds of thousands of internet routers, the F.B.I. has made an urgent request to anybody with one of the devices: Turn it off, and then turn it back on.

The malware is capable of blocking web traffic, collecting information that passes through home and office routers, and disabling the devices entirely, the bureau announced on Friday.

A global network of hundreds of thousands of routers is already under the control of the Sofacy Group, the Justice Department said last week. That group, which is also known as A.P.T. 28 and Fancy Bear and believed to be directed by Russia’s military intelligence agency, hacked the Democratic National Committee ahead of the 2016 presidential election, according to American and European intelligence agencies.

An analysis by Talos, the threat intelligence division for the tech giant Cisco, estimated that at least 500,000 routers in at least 54 countries had been infected by the malware, which the F.B.I. and cybersecurity researchers are calling VPNFilter.

Undoubtedly this is the latest hoax perpetuated by that enemy of America, the F.B.I., and Obama .

[Hong Wu]

It looks like Russiagate may have died today. Two of the main claims were that Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner had been speaking with the Russian government. The Steele dossier claimed that Manafort directed the Russian interference effort on behalf of Trump.

Recently, Kushner recovered his top secret security clearance, suggesting that the Mueller probe had found nothing on him that would warrant him not having that clearance level.

Then today we get this regarding Manafort: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... on-narrat/

[Media reported that Manafort had been speaking with the Russian government] ... But that and similar reports seemed to be dashed by Kevin Downing, Mr. Manafort’s attorney. He filed a brief in U.S. District Court subject to an accuracy review by a federal judge. In a cut-and-dried manner, he said Mr. Mueller has no evidence that Mr. Manafort communicated with Russian officials.

Mr. Downing is defending Mr. Manafort against federal charges that he laundered money paid by Ukrainian politicians and failed to pay income taxes.

In his filing, Mr. Downing said he specifically asked the Mueller team for any such surveillance evidence during mandatory evidence discovery. Mr. Mueller’s prosecutors answered that they had none. Prosecutors risk having charges dismissed if they fail to comply with discovery rules.

So, two possibilities here. One, Mueller has evidence of communications with the Russian government but is keeping it from Manafort's defense lawyer, which is illegal and can even get a case dismissed completely. Two (and far more likely) Mueller said they have no evidence of that because they have no evidence.

If neither Manafort nor Kushner colluded with the Russian government, is Russiagate still relevant?

[jimjam]

“Release Mueller's report” will become the central political axis of this political year. In these crowded months before November 6, we may see political tumult unseen since 1974. And just as then, the fate of a presidency may hang in the balance. American democracy is truly threatened today — by the man sitting in the Oval Office and the lawmakers giving him a free pass.

[Albert]

[Albert]