[mikema63]

So on June 11th Puerto Rico is having another referendum on statehood, independence, or remaining as is. (Originally it had to be one or the other but the Trump administration quietly pushed to add the as is option.)

Obviously the politics right now are pretty bad for Congress approving statehood. Though I imagine they would probably give it independence.

What are people's thoughts in this?

[Potemkin]

So on June 11th Puerto Rico is having another referendum on statehood, independence, or remaining as is. (Originally it had to be one or the other but the Trump administration quietly pushed to add the as is option.)

Obviously the politics right now are pretty bad for Congress approving statehood. Though I imagine they would probably give it independence.

What are people's thoughts in this?

Regarding Puerto Rico, the US government likes things just the way they are (which is why the Trump administration pushed for the status quo to be included on the list of options). And the result of the referendum will, of course, not be binding on the US government. The good people of Puerto Rico can vote for statehood if they wish, but that doesn't mean they're going to get it. Likewise, they can vote for independence if they wish, but that doesn't mean they're going to get it. My prediction: no matter which way the vote goes, Puerto Rico will remain a colony unincorporated territory of the USA. What, you think the US government wants to pay PR's debts? Or wants to lose a strategically vital outpost in the Caribbean? Pffft!

[The Immortal Goon]

Democrats would like it as a state as it would put two more blue seats in.

So it won't happen. The Democrats are too inept to push for it, and the Republicans aren't suicidal.

[mikema63]

Well yeah there are reasons to keep them as is.

I could definitely see Democrats approve statehood if they had power. Despite the debts it would be a decent political power boost.

I could also see Republican giving it independence because we could maintain it's strategic position and the populist wing would like to take away Puerto Ricans automatic citizenship.

[Suntzu]

1st choice: Cut it loose, let it sink in the ocean.

2nd choice: Put it under federal control, get the finances in order, figure out a way to keep PRs out of the U.S.

There is no chance of statehood with Republicans in power.

[Potemkin]

Well yeah there are reasons to keep them as is.

I could definitely see Democrats approve statehood if they had power. Despite the debts it would be a decent political power boost.

As TIG pointed out, that won't happen. Even when the Democrats were in a dominant political position in the 1990s, they didn't even make a token effort to make Puerto Rico a state. They certainly won't do it now.

I could also see Republican giving it independence because we could maintain it's strategic position and the populist wing would like to take away Puerto Ricans automatic citizenship.

The US government (and the US establishment in general) doesn't want PR going the same way Cuba went. They will never grant the island independence in any foreseeable future.

Fun fact: the people of Puerto Rico didn't ask for US citizenship - it was forced on them, as a way of binding PR to the US without actually making it a state. It also gave the US an easy supply of cheap labour and manpower for its armed forces. The right of all Puerto Ricans to just stroll into the US whenever they feel like it is long-standing and cannot be easily revoked without also granting independence. Besides, does anyone think the US establishment wants to give up that ready supply of cheap labour and cannon fodder?

[mikema63]

I'm not sure what anyone in our government wants anymore. Everything they do seems more accidental than purposeful.

[Beren]

I'm not sure what anyone in our government wants anymore. Everything they do seems more accidental than purposeful.

They do a great job then.

[mikema63]

They do a great job then.

Or maybe they aren't nearly as smart and cunning as all that?

They're lucky that the people aren't either.

[Beren]

Or maybe they aren't nearly as smart and cunning as all that?

Either if they do it on purpose or accidentally, they do a great job anyways. The second case may be even better for their masters.

They're lucky that the people aren't either.

Are you sure if it's only a matter of luck? You really seem to believe it's a completely spontaneous world around you.

[mikema63]

The whole universe is spontaneous. You can point to the causal links between things and why people are motivated to do what they do, but ultimately the world is far more absurd than anyone likes to admit.

Conspiracy theories are popular because people desperately want there to be reasons for things that happen. Humanity is not so amazing that everything that happens around us is deliberate and planned.

[Potemkin]

I'm not sure what anyone in our government wants anymore. Everything they do seems more accidental than purposeful.

Trust me, Mike: they know what they're doing. And I'm not talking about the politicians, I'm talking about they guys who are really in charge of the US. They may be evil sons-of-bitches, but they're not fools. They're already reigning in Trump so he doesn't upset the apple cart. And this referendum in Puerto Rico is just window-dressing; it will change nothing.

[Beren]

Conspiracy theories are popular because people desperately want there to be reasons for things that happen. Humanity is not so amazing that everything that happens around us is deliberate and planned.

I don't know if you're still a Marxist, or have ever been a Marxist actually, but I always wonder how Marxists can be so sceptical about conspiracy theories. They should believe the bourgeoisie are always conspiring against the working class and each other. The bourgeoisie conspiring against the working class is class warfare itself.

[mikema63]

I owe a lot to marxism.

The bourgeoisie don't conspire against the working class. The dynamic between them is driven by economic forces not some deliberate grand scheme. They push policies that help them make profit in the near future that hurts the working class in the long run not because they hate the working class or desire to hurt then but because they have to seek profit because of the way the system works.

I'm sceptical of conspiracies because I'm sceptical of the idea that humanity is at all deliberate. Things happen on the large scale due to an aggregate of little decisions, not a huge plan to actually do anything on a grand societal scale.

[Beren]

I owe a lot to marxism.

The bourgeoisie don't conspire against the working class. The dynamic between them is driven by economic forces not some deliberate grand scheme. They push policies that help them make profit in the near future that hurts the working class in the long run not because they hate the working class or desire to hurt then but because they have to seek profit because of the way the system works.

I'm sceptical of conspiracies because I'm sceptical of the idea that humanity is at all deliberate. Things happen on the large scale due to an aggregate of little decisions, not a huge plan to actually do anything on a grand societal scale.

So you don't believe the ruling class have ever applied social engineering, smoke and mirrors, etc. to maintain their power? Conspiring against the lower class is not an especially capitalist thing, it's a ruling class thing actually.

[Rugoz]

And this referendum in Puerto Rico is just window-dressing; it will change nothing.

To be fair, Puerto Ricans cannot force the US to accept them. They would get independence, but past referendums have shown they don't want it.

[Beren]

They don't want it and they wouldn't get it if they wanted it.

[mikema63]

So you don't believe the ruling class have ever applied social engineering, smoke and mirrors, etc. to maintain their power? Conspiring against the lower class is not an especially capitalist thing, it's a ruling class thing actually.

They certainly try, but your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they never do thing like push for lower taxes or policies that hurt the working class. I'm saying they do it to increase profit in the short not some grand design over the long run.

There are always tons of unseen concequences to each policy that nobody plans. After all marxists think the ultimate outcome of all this is the ruling class destroying the very system that supports them. Which certainly isn't something they actually plan to happen.

[Potemkin]

To be fair, Puerto Ricans cannot force the US to accept them. They would get independence, but past referendums have shown they don't want it.

Hardly surprising, considering that the independence movement was crushed back in the 1950s and 60s. Back then, the Puerto Rican flag was banned - anyone caught displaying the Puerto Rican national flag in Puerto Rico could be arrested, and many were. Even in the 1970s, independence politicians were regularly being intimidated and targeted. And the US government provided lots of money and free welfare to keep the masses appeased - are people really going to vote to give up free money, or the chance to emigrate to the USA?

They don't want it and they wouldn't get it if they wanted it.

Basically, yes.

[Beren]

They certainly try, but your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they never do thing like push for lower taxes or policies that hurt the working class. I'm saying they do it to increase profit in the short not some grand design over the long run.

I'm not misunderstanding you then. It's the profit motive in capitalism indeed, but the point is that it's not a capitalist thing especially. It's also not only about economics and finance, it's cultural too. Class warfare also happens while watching television.

There are always tons of unseen concequences to each policy that nobody plans. After all marxists think the ultimate outcome of all this is the ruling class destroying the very system that supports them. Which certainly isn't something they actually plan to happen.

It's due to technological progress and the development of the productive forces too. Although the mode of production and the socioeconomic framework always change, class society remains.