[Pants-of-dog]

OK I'm pretty sure you understand that any event causes an array of consequences.
Enough games POD. You wanna bicker? Find another playmate. Your tactics here exemplify those of the natives. Blind opposition. Consistent nattering and complaining...no matter how asinine. Argument...for Argument's sake.

I had no idea that asking for evidence was considered asinine bickering.

If evidence based debating offends you, PoFo might not be for you.

If the words of the Iroquois hold no meaning today, then I guess neither do the treaties.

Since I never argued that the words of the Iroquois were entirely meaningless, this is irrelevant.

Or do you really think that the natives think they can simply do as they please, tax free, forever?
Hey do you happen to know if those Casinos on the reserves, actually pay taxes? Are they helping the financial position of Canada? Or are they generally draining it...

First of all, indigenous people pay taxes.

Secondly, indigenous owned casinos probably have the same economic impact as other casinos.

I'm almost certain I've done this one but...
Nisga’a

Why should an opinion piece from a right wing website be relevant? Does it supp1one of your claims?

Ya know, had they been thinking of finding a solution to issues, they maybe should have pitched their tent, and made a public display of presenting the land to the country on the nation's 150th birthday. In return, Pixey-Dust would have been able to make all sorts of grandiose generalizations about how he loves the natives, and then guarantee the government will fix all the bands' water and sanitation issues. Everyone could leave with happy smiles on their faces, the native objective would have been gained, and relations would be improved.

But no...duh!

Sorry, but do you honestly think that the objective of indigenous people is to give their land away?

What do you hope to gain here? I mean you do realize this claim is silly...symbolic...useless...don't you? It has an acetic effect instead of a healing effect.

Please see my reply to Verv for the answer to this.

And is just yet another example of how the natives insist in marginalizing themselves from Canada. Self Segregation.

By protesting? By taking part in one of the most traditional and accepted ways of participation in politics?

I guess if they just said nothing and kept to themselves, that would be a model example of integration.

It's a question.

Yes, it is. That does not change the fact that are you deliberately trying to be insulting.

[colliric]

At least Canada Day is much more appropriate than Australia Day, which celebrates the founding of the first penal colony in present-day Sydney. Canada Day (July 1) is when Canada became an autonomous colony within the British Empire named the Dominion of Canada, which is equivalent to the Fourth of July.

Australia's national patriotic holiday is in reality April 25, ANZAC Day.

Although it is technically our equivalent of Patriot's or Memorial Day and meant as a Veterans Holiday, it is in fact mostly practically celebrated as Australia's National Patriotic holiday due to the significance of the Gallipoli Battle and the date Australia formed it's formal military alliance with New Zealand.

January 26th is more a formal celebration of Australia's cultural history than a Patrotic celebration. Most of us don't even bother to celebrate it anymore. ANZAC day and to Melbournians' Melbourne Cup Day are the big two public holidays.

Yes we celebrate "Horse Day, first Tuesday in November" in Melbourne way more than Australia Day.

[Buzz62]

POD debate is one thing, belligerence is quite another.
You have ample evidence. Take it or leave it...

Pay taxes eh? What to their own band's councils?
Same economic impact...which means their business income is federally taxed as capital gains? Is that the case?

You're right about the natives and their objective. Except we're talking about the nation's capital.
It's an unattainable goal, and merely an excuse to get the cameras out for a public display.
And can you guess what sort of message this silly act sends to the Canadian public?
That's what's wrong with this confrontational tactic of the natives, it may gain them international "brownie points", but in the nation that really counts, probably not so much...eh? Hey I got a good idea. Why don't you send them out to block the railways again? That always get the attention of the UN crowd and the Canadian public. Come on, do it again. It was so amusing to watch last time...

You and I are never going to agree, because you want the Indians to keep being the Indians of the 17 hundreds, and I want to see a tragically large number of people join the real world.
If the native people really want prosperity and success in this world, then they would get formal educations, work their way up the ladder, and cash-in around 60. That's how the real world works POD.

If they really wanted something more than a free ride and permission to be a pain in the ass on a regular basis, they find a promoter or advisor with excellent Project Management and negotiating skills. But that's not what they want, is it...

and if'n yer insulted...tough...

[Drlee]

Y

ou and I are never going to agree, because you want the Indians to keep being the Indians of the 17 hundreds, and I want to see a tragically large number of people join the real world.

This is the point I was trying to make. Before contact most native Americans were not peacefully going about their business trading horns and smoking tobacco. Some enslaved one another, practiced ritual torture and sacrifice and even engaged in cannibalism. Is not allowing these honored traditions on reservations today cultural genocide?

[Pants-of-dog]

POD debate is one thing, belligerence is quite another.
You have ample evidence. Take it or leave it...

Asking for evidence, or pointing out that the evidnece given does not support the claim, is well within the bounds of reasonable debate.

Please note that you have implied that I am a corrupt liar, while I have not implied anything disrespectful about you. In my opinion, your behaviour may fir the definition of belligerence more closely.

Pay taxes eh? What to their own band's councils?

Yes. As well as paying federal and provincial taxes.

https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tax-resource ... canada.jsp

It’s a misconception that native people in Canada are free of the obligation to pay federal or provincial taxes. First Nations people receive tax exemption under certain circumstances, although the exemptions don't apply to the Inuit and Metis.

This leads to the impression that natives don't have to pay tax like other Canadians, which isn’t true according to Bob Joseph, president of Indigenous Corporate Training, Inc., a British Columbia-based company specializing in helping corporations work with aboriginal people.

Legal Exemption for Status Indians
“All Canadians are required to pay taxes, but they can take advantage of various options to reduce the amount they have to pay,” says Joseph. Section 87 of the Indian Act provides Status Indians with certain benefits.

A Status Indian is a First Nations person eligible for registration under the act, which provides a number of rights and benefits, including the right live on an Indian reserve.

“Having status enables native Indians to avoid being liable for taxes on personal and real property if it is located on a reserve,” he says.

“This includes income, which the government considers personal property if the person earns the income on the reserve. Metis and Inuit people typically don’t live on reserves, but even if they do, the exemption is reserved for people whose names appear on the Indian Register. “

Same economic impact...which means their business income is federally taxed as capital gains? Is that the case?

Do you have an argument to make?

You're right about the natives and their objective. Except we're talking about the nation's capital.
It's an unattainable goal, and merely an excuse to get the cameras out for a public display.
And can you guess what sort of message this silly act sends to the Canadian public?
That's what's wrong with this confrontational tactic of the natives, it may gain them international "brownie points", but in the nation that really counts, probably not so much...eh? Hey I got a good idea. Why don't you send them out to block the railways again? That always get the attention of the UN crowd and the Canadian public. Come on, do it again. It was so amusing to watch last time...

I asked you about the legal basis by which Canada lays claim to the legislative grounds.

You have yet to answer that question.

It would seem that you have no idea what the legal basis, or even if one exists.

You and I are never going to agree, because you want the Indians to keep being the Indians of the 17 hundreds, and I want to see a tragically large number of people join the real world.

No, that is not what I want. You guessed wrong. Please note that I have never said that, or even anything that implied that.

If the native people really want prosperity and success in this world, then they would get formal educations, work their way up the ladder, and cash-in around 60. That's how the real world works POD.

If they really wanted something more than a free ride and permission to be a pain in the ass on a regular basis, they find a promoter or advisor with excellent Project Management and negotiating skills. But that's not what they want, is it...

You have not yet provided any evidence that indigenous people are currently self-segregating. At best, you have shown an enduring claim to self-sovereignty, which is related but not the same thing.

and if'n yer insulted...tough...

No. While you are deliberately trying to be insulting, I am used to far worse, as I have supported indigenous sovereignty and rights for decades, here on the Canadian prairies.

------------------

This is the point I was trying to make. Before contact most native Americans were not peacefully going about their business trading horns and smoking tobacco. Some enslaved one another, practiced ritual torture and sacrifice and even engaged in cannibalism. Is not allowing these honored traditions on reservations today cultural genocide?

And as I pointed out, there is no reason to assume that only those cultures that are arbitrarily stuck in time are valid and real.

No one argues that Europeans have to wear wooden shoes and live without sewage systems to maintain European cultures in the present. Why does this unreasonable expectation exist for indigenous people?

But the acts that have been called "cultural genocide" in Canada are far more than simply banning a few obviously abhorrent practices. When I say that they performed medical experiments in children without their consent, that is not the same thing at all as banning human sacrifice.

Finally, a question: do you think that if indigenous people were allowed to continue whichever cultural traditions they choose, they would choose these abhorrent practices?

[Drlee]

Finally, a question: do you think that if indigenous people were allowed to continue whichever cultural traditions they choose, they would choose these abhorrent practices?

Irrelevant. The only thing that threatens their traditions, whatever they choose, is their own personal choice. If they want to trade horns and do the deer dance everyday that is fine. If that is what they choose to do rather than move into the modern world it is reasonable to expect them to suffer the consequences.

Some would say that classical music, enjoyed by many in the west, is a quaint indulgence but would not refer to modern music as cultural genocide. The US and Canada have treaty responsibilities when it comes to the treatment of Native Americans. We should honor those. We have no obligation to drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world.

In the US, and it would appear Canada, it appears that many groups have no problem changing the tone of their "sacred" lands if they can make a couple of bucks doing it. When it comes to preferential treatment, there is no doubt that NA's get it in spades. At least in the US they do.

[One Degree]

Despite all the hysteria about genocide of Native Americans, generally they were not even conquered. They signed peace treaties and received 'special status' in the US and I assume Canada.
They are nations within nations and to my way of thinking, this should make them more responsible for their own welfare than other citizens. They should give up their special status to reap full benefits from the government.

[Pants-of-dog]

Irrelevant. The only thing that threatens their traditions, whatever they choose, is their own personal choice.

...and the various levels of government in Canada who have also deliberately and systematically tried to destory indigenous cultures.

This is the finding of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that looked into the residential school system and its legacy.

It is historically inaccurate to say that indigenous people are the only threat to their traditions.

If they want to trade horns and do the deer dance everyday that is fine. If that is what they choose to do rather than move into the modern world it is reasonable to expect them to suffer the consequences.

You seem to be saying that indigenous communities have to choose between maintaining their own cultures, or enjoying modern technology. They seemingly cannot do both, according to you.

I disagree.

Some would say that classical music, enjoyed by many in the west, is a quaint indulgence but would not refer to modern music as cultural genocide.

You are correct.

I, instead, refer to a deliberate and systematic attempt to completely eradicate indigenous cultures when I refer to cultural genocide.

Do you disagree with that?

The US and Canada have treaty responsibilities when it comes to the treatment of Native Americans. We should honor those. We have no obligation to drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world.

What do you eman by that?

In the US, and it would appear Canada, it appears that many groups have no problem changing the tone of their "sacred" lands if they can make a couple of bucks doing it.

Yes, it is often the case that indigenous communities are so impoverished that they are forced to sell sacred lands or their rights in order to stay alive. Whether or not they think it is "no problem" (as you put it) is an unverifiable claim about feelings.

When it comes to preferential treatment, there is no doubt that NA's get it in spades. At least in the US they do.

I doubt it. The evidence suggests otherwise.

----------------

Despite all the hysteria about genocide of Native Americans, generally they were not even conquered. They signed peace treaties and received 'special status' in the US and I assume Canada.

Or, you could say that the settlers received special status from the treaties, and the indigenous people simply tried to keep living their lives,

They are nations within nations and to my way of thinking, this should make them more responsible for their own welfare than other citizens. They should give up their special status to reap full benefits from the government.

I am not surprised to see you arguing that these communities should give up their community rights and embrace the individualist lifestyle of the settlers.

[One Degree]

@Pants-of-dog

I am not surprised to see you arguing that these communities should give up their community rights and embrace the individualist lifestyle of the settlers.

I anticipated that but decided to wait to see if you actually said it. I would have no problem with the larger reservations receiving state hood, or provinces in your case. This eliminates their special status but preserves their communities. Certainly not a geographic problem for the Inuits and since they are a territory that is a small step. The problem of course is the small population numbers of some groups. They are not viable on their own and nonviable settlements should be eliminated, not subsidized.

[Dave]

Protests by Indians irritate me tremendously.

The Indians lost.

North America belongs to the white man now.

These people should be thanking us that we let them live.

For now.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog

I anticipated that but decided to wait to see if you actually said it. I would have no problem with the larger reservations receiving state hood, or provinces in your case. This eliminates their special status but preserves their communities. Certainly not a geographic problem for the Inuits and since they are a territory that is a small step. The problem of course is the small population numbers of some groups. They are not viable on their own and nonviable settlements should be eliminated, not subsidized.

This has nothing to do wih what indigenous communities actually want.

-----------------

Protests by Indians irritate me tremendously.

The Indians lost.

What exactly did they lose? An imaginary war?

North America belongs to the white man now.

According to what legal basis?

These people should be thanking us that we let them live.

For now.

Oh, I see. You are just trolling again. Have fun with that!

[One Degree]

@Pants-of-dog

This has nothing to do wih what indigenous communities actually want.

Most humans face at least one time in their lives where they must give up something they want because it is not sustainable. Why should we try to prevent this for indigenous people? We all have to make choices.

[Dave]

The Indians lost in that they were once the only race populating North America.

They failed to stop the arrival of the white man.

This is our country now. You asked why--look around you. We conquered this continent, and it is ours now.

In our magnanimity and mercy, we permitted them to continue to exist. This can of course be withdrawn at any time--not that I suggest or encourage such a withdrawal of mercy. But the Indians should remember this before they oppose us.

And hello PoD. I promise this time around to engage you in a peaceful and civil manner. I've committed myself to giving Noemon zero trouble this time around.

I hope you, Yiwa, and your children are doing well. Take care.

[Drlee]

I

t is historically inaccurate to say that indigenous people are the only threat to their traditions.

This is untrue. The fact is that they have willingly traded some of their legacy for modern convenience.

You seem to be saying that indigenous communities have to choose between maintaining their own cultures, or enjoying modern technology. They seemingly cannot do both, according to you.

I would agree with you if you wish to relegate the primitive aspects of their cultures to the ash heap of history. Taking our Navajo as an example....Many members of the Navajo nation choose to follow their remote and primitive way of life rather than joining the 21st century. This despite the fact that they can have free health care, free university education and many other "perks" if they are just willing to move to more developed areas within their own nation or outside of it. I honor their choice. But they can't have it both ways. If these people choose the modern way of life in preference for their more traditional one, they will lose what they (and I) consider a unique cultural heritage.

The US and Canada have treaty responsibilities when it comes to the treatment of Native Americans. We should honor those. We have no obligation to drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world.

Many Native Americans regret the former reservation schools, the imposition of modern mores and morals and the imposition of religious restrictions. We should stop doing this. We should put the tribal leaders in charge of what is taught in the schools. This comes with a cautionary note though. It is possible that in some places this tribal centered education may further bind tribal members to the reservation. For example, as has been proposed by some nations, teaching their language first could handicap some members who wish to go away to school or leave the reservation forever. Bilingual education is not an easy choice and sets up serious issues for many students.

When it comes to preferential treatment, there is no doubt that NA's get it in spades. At least in the US they do.

In the US most treaty nations receive free health care at government expense. They are allowed to administer it locally with the federal government footing the bill. They can choose to hire their own doctors, employ public health officers or require the IHS to provide their care. This care is far from substandard and completely free. Health issues on reservations are not a result of the lack of availability for care. As you know POD, I was personally involved in the providing of this care by working on staffing of their clinics/hospitals. They get top-drawer docs and no bill. This is but one example. There is education money both on and off the reservation.

The federal government (US) has obligated money got tribal cultural preservation. (Google it.) This is done at no expense to the tribe.

Law enforcement is paid by the federal government. No expense to the tribe though not a treaty requirement.

Free legal resources.

Free archaeological resources.

Money from trust lands.

On and on.

I am not saying that improvements could not be made but the think of modern Native Americans as an oppressed minority is far off the mark.

North America belongs to the white man now.

Well. Actually it belongs to mostly women but that is neither here nor there. We are nominal democracies. Native American people can vote even though they wish to assert national independence in many cases. Odd that should be allowed.

[Pants-of-dog]

@One Degree

I have no idea why you think indigenous culutres are less sustainable than the one we are in where we literally pollute our own food, water, and air.

-----------------

The Indians lost in that they were once the only race populating North America.

By that metric, white people never won.

They failed to stop the arrival of the white man.

Much like racist white men have failed to stop immigration? While I agree that racist white guys are losers, I do not think they are losers for this exact reason.

This is our country now. You asked why--look around you. We conquered this continent, and it is ours now.

No, you never conquered it. This is why you cannot name a war of conquest.

In our magnanimity and mercy, we permitted them to continue to exist. This can of course be withdrawn at any time--not that I suggest or encourage such a withdrawal of mercy. But the Indians should remember this before they oppose us.

Actually, you have been trying and failing to wipe them out for centuries now. If you had read the articles discussing the OP (or even the thread itself!) you would know this. But I honestly do not expect you to, so I will simply repeat it here.

And hello PoD. I promise this time around to engage you in a peaceful and civil manner. I've committed myself to giving Noemon zero trouble this time around.

I hope you, Yiwa, and your children are doing well. Take care.

I also hope you can control your emotions more effectively this time.

This is a nice change of pace from the time you wished my family was tortured and killed.

-------------

This is untrue. The fact is that they have willingly traded some of their legacy for modern convenience.

What was the residential school system?

What does it have to do with the protests?

Until you show me that you understand this, there is no point debating anything else with you.

[Dave]

Thank you PoD.

I promise to keep this up.

Good luck to you and your family.

See you on the debating battlefield.

[Drlee]

What was the residential school system?

What does it have to do with the protests?

Until you show me that you understand this, there is no point debating anything else with you.

I understand. You are withdrawing from the debate with me. I think that is a wise decision on your part.

[Pants-of-dog]

I understand. You are withdrawing from the debate with me. I think that is a wise decision on your part.

No. I am trying to make you understand that you are objectively incorrect when you claim that it is indigenous people who are trying to destroy indigenous cultures.

This is because the residential school system was program deliberately crafted to try and destroy indigenous cultures.

I even described why I call it cultural genocide.

Thus, when you claim that only indigenous people are threatening their own cultures, you are factually wrong.

Until you figure this out, there is no point debating with you.

[Drlee]

Thus, when you claim that only indigenous people are threatening their own cultures, you are factually wrong.

Work on your reading comprehension skills. I never said that ONLY.....

Do try to keep up.

[SolarCross]

POD the Spanish Conquistador thinks it is a terrible thing that the Germans, English, Polish, Italians, Irish and French have North America but is COMPLETELY FINE with the Spanish and Portuguese taking all of South America and hopes they will get the North as well. Question is POD a Spanish Supremacist?