[Zagadka]

I'll just let Rancid respond, he's doing a much better job of it.

[Rancid]

450k to be called "middle" is just laughable. anasawad comes from a wealthy family, so his views are probably really skewed. Also, as Buluba mentioned, I'm pretty sure Ansawad has never worked in the US, and understand what happens after taxation, or understands what it costs to live here. Let's not forget that medical care isn't free either.

Anyway, according to this:

http://money.cnn.com/infographic/econom ... index.html

Middle class income is 50k to 140k, which I could believe as a roughly true. Not to far off from my guess of 60k to 120k.

@anasawad, just accept you are dead wrong on this matter.


EDIT:

Top 5% is roughly 220k income per year.

The top 5% cannot be considered middle class, which is what @anasawad appears to be suggesting.

[anasawad]

@Rancid
I don't care what Americans define middle class as. I care what actual sociologists define middle class. And the raw amount of income isn't important in and of itself in making someone a middle class.

And the upper class is usually limited to less than 1% of the population, meaning that the top 10% excluding the top 1% from them are generally middle class. Upper middle class, but middle class nevertheless.

And sure, myself and all the major sociologists who made the very term, middle class, and defined it and characterized it are all wrong. Because Americans don't like it and want to be majority middle class; So obviously everything should change to fit their dumb ego.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

You are posting in a thread about American politics and socioeconomics, with American-specific socioeconomic terminology as it applies to American income levels and socioeconomic classes, in a subforum called North America.

That's as ignorant as someone posting in a thread about Lebanon how they think your definitions of stuff as they apply to life in Lebanon is wrong and they "don't care" what the Lebanese think while posting in a thread about Lebanon in the Middle East subforum. It would actually even be culturally insensitive on top of simply being ignorant.

[Rancid]

Also, I tihnk @anasawad's mistake is that he's using a definition of class, that Americans do not adhere to.

In America, the concept of class doesn't work like it does in many other places. For example, in the UK they don't see class like we do in the US. It takes me back to a discussion I had with Potemkin where I kept asking him "How much money do I need to make to be a part of the British Middle class." His response was basically that I could never be in the British middle class, because it's not all about money. Income alone doesn't define class in the UK. I'm sure this is true in many places on the planet.

However, in the US, income and net-worth alone pretty much do define your class status. Since we're talking about a Republican that lives in America. We should be using the American definition/outlook on class. Not some definition that is foreign to the US. Most Americans will tell you right off, that your "class" is purely based on how much money you make yearly. They would also agree that 450k a year, qualifies as rich, and thus should not be called middle class, and in fact, should be called upper class.


This is what's awesome about America in one respect. Money can often transcend things like race or religion. "Oh... you're rich like me? I don't care what race you are, we can go play golf together and talk about how awesome it is to be rich" USA! USA! USA!

You are posting in a thread about American politics and socioeconomics, with American-specific socioeconomic terminology as it applies to American income levels and socioeconomic classes, in a subforum called North America.

That's as ignorant as someone posting in a thread about Lebanon how they think your definitions of stuff as they apply to life in Lebanon is wrong and they "don't care" what the Lebanese think while posting in a thread about Lebanon in the Middle East subforum. It would actually even be culturally insensitive on top of simply being ignorant.

Basically this 1000000x

[anasawad]

@Bulaba Jones
Because first; the definition of the middle class does not differ between nations. And second; Even your sociologists define these characteristics to the middle class and don't define it based on income in and of itself.

@Rancid
Even in the US, sociologists attach special characteristics to the middle class.
It has certain differences from other countries as all do. But in essence all definition agree on a number of aspects which I mentioned. Basically, they're all the same.

[Rancid]

@Bulaba Jones
Because first; the definition of the middle class does not differ between nations.

Yes, it does. There are cultural and historical contexts that have to be recognized. It's exactly why if I took my money to the UK, I could not be called middle class, yet in the US, I am described as middle class all the time.

[anasawad]

in essence all definition agree on a number of aspects which I mentioned. Basically, they're all the same.

[Zagadka]

the definition of the middle class does not differ between nations

That is the dumbest statement I've seen in months.

[anasawad]

You can waste 10 seconds and read the rest of the post.

[mikema63]

You are going to great lengths to convince a bunch of Americans that we are wrong about what class in America is like.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

It's not just the fact there's a rich guy from Lebanon trying to lecture people in America on what class in America is like, it's an example of how completely out of touch with reality people who were born wealthy and apparently grow up spoiled and ignorant of what it's like to be part of a different socioeconomic class is like. Which hearkens back to the OP with the GOP being entirely out of touch (although deliberately so) with what constitutes middle and lower class.

[anasawad]

From American sociology;

One social class model proposed by sociologists posits that there are six social classes in America. In this model, the upper class in America (3% of the population) is divided into the upper-upper class (1% of the U.S. population), earning hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in income per year, while the lower-upper class (2%) earns millions in annual income. The middle class (40%) is divided into the upper-middle class (14%, earning $76,000 or more per year) and the lower-middle class (26%, earning $46,000 to $75,000 annually). The working class (30%) earns $19,000 to $45,000.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... n-the-u-s/

Focus on the (Or more) part, and how much upper class in the US makes.
Now why don't you all go fuck yourselves ?

there's a rich guy from Lebanon

My family being rich doesn't mean I am rich.

trying to lecture people in America on what class in America is like,

How about your own sociologists talking about Americans classes agreeing with me ?
Or sorry, to be more specific, me copying what they say about American classes ?

it's an example of how completely out of touch with reality people who were born wealthy and apparently grow up spoiled and ignorant of what it's like to be part of a different socioeconomic class is like.

Even though my parents are indeed very rich, since the age of 11 I had to attend both military training and work training after school and in weekend which meant that my day growing up would be going to school at 7 AM and returning home at 10 PM to sleep. So didn't really enjoy their wealth.
And at the age of 15, just like every member of my clan, I was dropped off in Jordan to live on my own and on my own expense with only medical bills and school being paid. I did take an allowance of 150$ a month for the first year then I was told to manage.
The only time I started really having good money and income and got to buy nice things was the last 2 years as my income increased when I started investing small amounts in currency trade and sold the small pieces of land that every clan in Lebanon and Iran gives to its members to live off, and used that to put a down payment for a house for my family. Ofcourse the income increased from my work in mechanics because I've been in the field for over 12 years now, literally since I was 11. For the first 8 of those, my income didn't pass the 600$ mark.

So you probably should reconsider the "out-of-touch rich guy" idea about me. Because at various stages I've been at all 3 classes.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Every single American in this thread is telling you that you are completely wrong in your assertions about America. Just stop while you aren't ahead, dude.

[anasawad]

I literally just quoted a section about American class structure from an American sociologist defining the classes.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you Americans ? Are you all anti-science, anti- academia in every possible field to ever exist ?

And so what if everyone in this thread is saying its wrong. Your sociologists (i.e the people who's profession is to determine these definitions) say its like this. You can be 3 or a 100 continuously saying or screaming its wrong, it doesn't make it wrong.

[Zagadka]

Rancid posted plenty of statistics. If you can't comprehend what "middle class" means and thinks "middle class" is the same level between the US and Bolivia... that's on you, man. "Middle" means something.

This is one of the problems with rich people. They can't comprehend being poor.

[anasawad]

Where did he post "plenty" of statistics ?
Who the fuck mentioned Bolivia ? And I am the one who mentioned the income of each class differs between countries when I compared the US and Belarus.
And so far, it appears you and the others are the ones who are still unable to understand the basic definition and characteristics of middle class.

Hint; Middle class and average citizen are not the same thing.
You appear to think that the state of the average person is middle class. Its NOT.

[Rancid]

From American sociology;

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... n-the-u-s/

Focus on the (Or more) part, and how much upper class in the US makes.
Now why don't you all go fuck yourselves ?

Ok, so the lower end of the middle class is 76k on the lower end, but what about the upper end? That doesn't seem to be defined here. What's the boundary between middle and lower-upper?

That's really what we're arguing about here. At least initially.

I bet it will come in WAAAAY below 450k.

Ultimately though,

[Sivad]

"There is no formal definition of the American middle class, but the Tax Policy Center puts its “middle quintile” between $48,300 and $85,600 a year."

38% of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.

51% of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.

62% of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.

71% of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.
https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2014

A $15 Minimum Wage Would Give Almost Half of American Workers a Raise. Is That Crazy?

Half of America Is in or Damn Near Close to Living in Poverty

*Apparently Americans are an economically disenfranchised slave population of retarded assholes.

[Rugoz]

Middle class is not a clearly defined term but the idea that $450k is middle class in the US or anywhere for that matter is utterly preposterous.