[Crantag]

Really? If the government tells you they will give you more money to plant one crop than others, this has no effect on what they plant? Who is ‘grasping’ now?
And then you say corporations decide, not the farmers? I need to talk to my farmer friends who spend so much time studying subsidies and potential market demands, and tell them they are wasting their time.

There are differing situations to be sure. Many farmers nowadays are in effect subcontractors. I am referring to the large-scale producers now, which are central to the US agricultural framework.

Subsidies create signals and influence incentives. It was your phrasing which suggested the government tells farmers what to produce. That was inaccurate. I interjected that corporations in fact do tell farmers what to produce. I know there are different agricultural business models. I was following you down your own rabit whole. But I also made a point about the agricultural framework about corporate control which I do think is salient.

[One Degree]

There are differing situations to be sure. Many farmers nowadays are in effect subcontractors. I am referring to the large-scale producers now, which are central to the US agricultural framework.

Subsidies create signals and influence incentives. It was your phrasing which suggested the government tells farmers what to produce. That was inaccurate. I interjected that corporations in fact do tell farmers what to produce. I know there are different agricultural business models. I was following you down your own rabit whole. But I also made a point about the agricultural framework about corporate control which I do think is salient.

I believe corporate control was more of a factor before global trade became a major factor. If Del Monte built a plant in your area then it automatically became more profitable to grow what they wanted. Reduced storage and transportation almost guaranteed it. I really don’t know if this is true today, but I doubt it because US farming has moved toward feed crops.
The subsidies overwhelmingly go to the largest farmers, so I guess you could argue the government in collusion with corporate farmers determine what is planted.

[Ter]

Where are the days when cows used to eat grass, and hay in the winter ?
Now they are on the forefront of trade wars between superpowers and event their farts are a main source of worry for the well-being of the planet.

[Godstud]

@Ter most cows are range fed, and eat grass. They supplement their diet.

[One Degree]

@Ter most cows are range fed, and eat grass. They supplement their diet.

True, but misleading. This may only be true for the first year and then they go to feed lots for artificial fattening. The US mainly uses corn and now adds soy. Canada mainly uses barley due to their climate limiting corn. They then add hormones, antibiotics, and who knows what else.

[Godstud]

It's not misleading. Their diets are supplemented but not restricted to grains. They do this because often wild grass fed cattle taste better. The better beef is NOT corn fed. I don't know where you heard of this, but it's a fallacy.

They then add hormones, antibiotics, and who knows what else.

Source please. There's a lot of supposition going on but few people can back it up with facts. Canada has stricter rules for cattle/beef, than the USA, too.

[One Degree]

It's not misleading. Their diets are supplemented but not restricted to grains. They do this because often wild grass fed cattle taste better. The better beef is NOT corn fed. I don't know where you heard of this, but it's a fallacy.

Source please. There's a lot of supposition going on but few people can back it up with facts. Canada has stricter rules for cattle/beef, than the USA, too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedlot
This is not a secret or a conspiracy. The government oversees it. The US invented the feed lot practice.

[Zamuel]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedlot
This is not a secret or a conspiracy. The government oversees it. The US invented the feed lot practice.

That's a very precise and accurate article, I recommend it to any interested party. Not sure how this topic got onto beef as it's not really part of the Chinese trade issue ... beef are not fed Soybeans and there's no lack of corn.

Zam

[One Degree]

That's a very precise and accurate article, I recommend it to any interested party. Not sure how this topic got onto beef as it's not really part of the Chinese trade issue ... beef are not fed Soybeans and there's no lack of corn.

Zam

We got there from arguing whether soy is used in cattle feed. It is.

Edit: btw, apparently China was already turning to Brazil for soy because US soybeans are already loosing their protein level.

[Godstud]

The US invented the feed lot practice.

Again, USA, not Canada.
Health Canada's quiet move to end use of antibiotics to fatten up animals
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-ca ... -1.2700972

Anyways, back to topic:

Trump's decisions are poor and you need only look at the slumping stock market to see that.

[One Degree]

Again, USA, not Canada.
Health Canada's quiet move to end use of antibiotics to fatten up animals
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-ca ... -1.2700972

Anyways, back to topic:

Trump's decisions are poor and you need only look at the slumping stock market to see that.

Record breaking rises for over a year and now a normal downturn does not equate to bad policy.

[Godstud]

The rises were not due to Trump policy, but continuation of the strong economy that Obama started. You, and others were quick to attribute this to Trump, but when the economy starts to dip, you say it's not his fault. Hypocritical? Just a LOT.

Yes, it is attributed to bad policy.

[One Degree]

The rises were not due to Trump policy, but continuation of the strong economy that Obama started. You, and others were quick to attribute this to Trump, but when the economy starts to dip, you say it's not his fault. Hypocritical? Just a LOT.

Yes, it is attributed to bad policy.

You start with an unsubstantiated opinion. Company after company announced expansion, hiring, and raises due to Trump policies. To believe this did not have a direct impact on stock increases is just silly. The market over reacted to a business friendly president and eventually had to reset. I know very little about the stock market, but this is basic stuff.

[jimjam]

a normal downturn

This seems oxymoronic. Our "downturn" has just begun. Abnormal has always started out as normal. Time will tell.

[One Degree]

This seems oxymoronic. Our "downturn" has just begun. Abnormal has always started out as normal. Time will tell.

The stock market had the longest run of increases in history. You expect a ‘normal downturn’ after a period of increases. It is not an oxymoron. It is just what happens historically and there are explanations for it that I have never needed to remember.
We have already lived through the greatest recession since the depression and we are still hear to bitch about things.

[Rancid]

We got there from arguing whether soy is used in cattle feed. It is.

Edit: btw, apparently China was already turning to Brazil for soy because US soybeans are already loosing their protein level.

I'm surprised China wasn't already getting most of it's soy from Brazil. IT's much much easier to bribe and pay people off to get better prices down there.

[jimjam]

The stock market had the longest run of increases in history. You expect a ‘normal downturn’ after a period of increases. It is not an oxymoron. It is just what happens historically and there are explanations for it that I have never needed to remember.
We have already lived through the greatest recession since the depression and we are still hear to bitch about things.

True but .......... we have never had a real estate salesman with limited, at best, experience with a complex world economic system running the show. Bluffing, bluster and bullying, I suspect, will be less effective on the global scene than it is in and around Trump Tower. His primary learning experience seems to be Fox News which is largely weighted to self serving talk shows and simplistic tidbits .

Let's continue this discussion 2 years from now.

[4cal]

You start with an unsubstantiated opinion. Company after company announced expansion, hiring, and raises due to Trump policies. To believe this did not have a direct impact on stock increases is just silly. The market over reacted to a business friendly president and eventually had to reset. I know very little about the stock market, but this is basic stuff.

You’re right. Toys R. Us is selling its store fixtures; they’ve expanded into selling pallet jacks, cash registers, and shopping carts. They were never in that business before the pervert took over and worked his magic.

The DJIA was at 8,281 when Obama took over. When he left office, it was at 19,732. When shit-for-brains idiots squeal that regulations cause businesses to lose money and hurt the economy, going by this one indicator in the economy—-the one the pervert was touting early this year—-it’s bull shit. Otherwise, how did it more than double with all of the supposed pain that the regulations caused? And remember, Obama’s record is an 8 year track record. The pervert’s stock market rally is a 16 month sample.

http://stockguy22.com/2017/01/19/inaugu ... uary-20th/

[One Degree]

True but .......... we have never had a real estate salesman with limited, at best, experience with a complex world economic system running the show. Bluffing, bluster and bullying, I suspect, will be less effective on the global scene than it is in and around Trump Tower. His primary learning experience seems to be Fox News which is largely weighted to self serving talk shows and simplistic tidbits .

Let's continue this discussion 2 years from now.

At least ten years. His accomplishments and failures will be determined by the path we choose after him.

[jimjam]

At least ten years. His accomplishments and failures will be determined by the path we choose after him.

does this mean that he is absolved from responsibility for his actions ?

I doubt we will have to wait 10 years but let's agree to disagree.