[Victoribus Spolia]

I don't think there's any justification for what the US did to the people in the developing world but the fact is most of those poor fuckers would have wound up in a gulag anyway even without US "intervention". There were two evil empires engaged in a global struggle for world domination, most of the race was fucked regardless of who came out on top.

Well if you want to make an omelette, you gotta crack some eggs

[Sivad]

Well if you want to make an omelette, you gotta crack some eggs

The US planners have been running an omelette bar with no compunction for centuries now. I think by this point it's safe to say they're all a bunch of psychopaths.

[Pants-of-dog]

You're not a socialist.

Sure. Whatever.

Please note that this does not comtradict what I said. I could literally be a wolf with the ability to (barely) type, and my argument would still be just as coorect.

Lets not exaggerate the U.S. military activities in securing the frontier, you act like the U.S. Army swept in ahead of time to kill all the redskins and then *poof* it was all safe for the white man. It didn't happen that way. There were huge swaths of frontiers that were hundreds of miles away from any fortification, many towns were privately owned by prospectors, vigilante justice was the law of the land, and the whole things was both wild and individualist and the military only ever got involved for two primary reasons: #1 was in the civil war to block Confederate campaigns, then #2 was to crush the Indians after settlements had already been booming, especially with the influx of "ex-confederate refugees" following the civil war, tensions increased with the Indian nations exponentially from these displaced masses of Southerns and Northern prospectors (in the antebellum period it was mostly just the latter).

so your description of those events is a bit absurd.

Doubt it.

Also, most Americans are not ashamed of their "Neo-Imperialism" most Americans have neo-liberal and neo-conservative tendencies going all the way back to the Monroe Doctrine and would sympathize with the Great White Horse 'Murica keeping the world safe from *fill-in-the-blank* (i'm not saying i'm one these guys, but thats besides the point).

Since I never said anythung about being ashamed, I will chalk this up to you misreading my argument.

I totally agree that USians pat themselves on the back for their warmongering, and this is because they were told propaganda about how they were spreading freedom and democracy and fighting socialism. They weren’t, obviously, but they believe it.

So quit your whining about all of your "oppressed" minorities and making the silly comparison between U.S. interventions in what was the already shitty third-world hell-holes to buffer against he Soviets and the actual and direct atrocities perpetuated by self-avowed socialist regimes like the USSR under Stalin and Mao's China.

This thread is about why Americans don't like socialism, and Mao and Stain are literally the only reasons anyone would ever need to ever be concerned with that system.

That is like National Socialists bitching about the bad rap they get because of "Hitler." Well, whether its fair or not, that is the BIG reason nobody takes National Socialism seriously, and that is very similar to why people are leery of Socialism. Get over it.

Again, this does not contradict anything I have said.

If you want to pretend that the US fought against Stalin and Mao (even though the US didn’t) go ahead. Or pretend that the oppression committed by them somehow justifies US imperialism in places where Stalin and Mao had no influence, believe that too.

It just provides evidence for my point that you guys are deluded by the myths you guys tell yourself about your warmongering.

[Sivad]

Here's a real socialist -

[One Degree]

I love the argument of “Everyone who existed before me who did not live their lives based on what I believe today had to be evil”

[annatar1914]

This is a very good post along with One Degree's original.

Though, I tend to believe that many of these problems that could have been solved by less government are being exasperated by more government.

Americans will continue to struggle to come-to-terms with everything until they realized that statism will never make satisfy.

This is becoming so much the case anymore with my conversations on PoFo, I find well-read communists and myself tend to agree that so-called capitalism being enforced by the state is a bad thing, but we only disagree as to whether the problem is with the capitalism part or the state part of the equation.

That my friend is one of the most important aspects of our debate. I happen to believe as I might have said before, that Anarchist-Capitalism will be the last final stage of Capitalism, but as I aim to show sometime, will not have the outcome which some would predict.

[Victoribus Spolia]

That my friend is one of the most important aspects of our debate. I happen to believe as I might have said before, that Anarchist-Capitalism will be the last final stage of Capitalism, but as I aim to show sometime, will not have the outcome which some would predict.

I am working on an OP in my spare time for our official debate thread.

[annatar1914]

I am working on an OP in my spare time for our official debate thread.

Very good sir, just you and me, discussing the eternal and temporal verities. I assure you and all, that we will no doubt be frank and brutal about the liberal world order as it presently obtains.

[Zamuel]

the most successful societies on earth use quite a bit of socialism. So why are the Americans so afraid of it? Anyone here - specially Americans - want to tell me why?

It wasn't always so. The current attitude can be traced to violent campaigns against it that began in the 1920s, when unionism became a significant movement. It culminated in the 1950s with government repression and McCarthyism.

Since then the rightwing has used it as a consistent rallying point. But socialism is alive and kicking here, especially in practical moderation.

Zam

[Sivad]

Why state collectivism failed -

[Paddy14]

In a tangentially related issue hasn't the basic premise of McCarthyism proven to be correct by now?

Communists Should Not Teach in American Colleges - 1949 - by RAYMOND B. ALLEN

Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but isn't your avatar Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, the brutal dictator who repressed Chile for nearly two decades and became a notorious symbol of human rights abuse and corruption, and whose government murdered and tortured thousands during his repressive 17-year rule? If that's who you admire, I'm not totally surprised you think McCarthyism was wicked cool.

[Paddy14]

Yes, 3% of Americans are currently home schooled. I have been surprised the number has not already skyrocketed, but I believe it soon will.

Edit: I guess both parents working is the main holdup.

AFIK, there's lots more problems than that with home schooling. I was a boarder in one of the great Public Schools in the UK, and I go to the same sort of school here in Australia. Many of our teachers hold doctorates in the subject they teach, and most are highly qualified.

So for starters, no one parent, or two parents, are going to have the knowledge and teaching skills of a whole school full of highly qualified teachers. Like my dad is a Barrister, and pretty clever, but there's no way he would know about history, geography, chemistry, maths, etc. like my teachers do.

Another problem with homeschooling is that it lets parents completely control everything about their children’s lives. People might think this is a good thing, but its not, cos children are subjected to all their parents' bias and prejudices, where at school they meet lots of different people with lots of different ideas. Parents already have too much control over their children, and I would hate to be home schooled.

[One Degree]

AFIK, there's lots more problems than that with home schooling. I was a boarder in one of the great Public Schools in the UK, and I go to the same sort of school here in Australia. Many of our teachers hold doctorates in the subject they teach, and most are highly qualified.

So for starters, no one parent, or two parents, are going to have the knowledge and teaching skills of a whole school full of highly qualified teachers. Like my dad is a Barrister, and pretty clever, but there's no way he would know about history, geography, chemistry, maths, etc. like my teachers do.

Another problem with homeschooling is that it lets parents completely control everything about their children’s lives. People might think this is a good thing, but its not, cos children are subjected to all their parents' bias and prejudices, where at school they meet lots of different people with lots of different ideas. Parents already have too much control over their children, and I would hate to be home schooled.

I fully agreed with your reasoning once, but the internet makes most your points mute. Truthfully, the little I have seen of how the private tutoring schools operate puts the public system in the dark ages. This is from someone who taught in public schools for 17 years. The socialization is the only argument and that is probably more detrimental than beneficial. Private youth sports provides the same socialization.

Edit: please translate my use of ‘public’ and ‘private’.

[Potemkin]

I fully agreed with your reasoning once, but the internet makes most your points mute. Truthfully, the little I have seen of how the private tutoring schools operate puts the public system in the dark ages. This is from someone who taught in public schools for 17 years. The socialization is the only argument and that is probably more detrimental than beneficial. Private youth sports provides the same socialization.

When paddy14 refers to "public schools", he means something very different from the "public schools" to which you are referring, One Degree.

[One Degree]

When paddy14 refers to "public schools", he means something very different from the "public schools" to which you are referring, One Degree.

Yeah, I added an edit as you were posting. Still, no matter how qualified his instructors are, more qualified can be utilized through an internet based education system.

[Potemkin]

Yeah, I added an edit as you were posting. Still, no matter how qualified his instructors are, more qualified can be utilized through an internet based education system.

The British "public school" system is like private tutoring on steroids, One Degree. The most expensive British "public" schools probably provide the best education in the world, at a price.

[One Degree]

The British "public school" system is like private tutoring on steroids, One Degree. The most expensive British "public" schools probably provide the best education in the world, at a price.

I don’t doubt it, but it seemed rude to just say if everyone had access to what he is describing, we would not be having the discussion. His experience has little to do with the concerns being discussed.

[Potemkin]

I don’t doubt it, but it seemed rude to just say if everyone had access to what he is describing, we would not be having the discussion. His experience has little to do with the concerns being discussed.

Agreed.

[Zamuel]

The British "public school" system is like private tutoring on steroids, One Degree. The most expensive British "public" schools probably provide the best education in the world, at a price.

Hmmm, well ... Why is it then that the Brits have dropped so far behind in their Art and Science? They havn't produced anything significant in decades. A few low brow comedies seems to be the "Best" they can do these days. Britians "Best" all seem to have been educated in American colleges.

Zam

[Potemkin]

Hmmm, well ... Why is it then that the Brits have dropped so far behind in their Art and Science? They havn't produced anything significant in decades. A few low brow comedies seems to be the "Best" they can do these days. Britians "Best" all seem to have been educated in American colleges.

Zam

The vast majority of British people are educated at crappy state schools which are underfunded whose infrastructure is crumbling, and whose main purpose, historically speaking, was to churn out 'factory fodder' to keep the wheels of industry turning. British education is like British journalism - a strange mixture of the best in the world and the worst in the world.