[Godstud]

Lies, whether crude of sophisticated, are lies, nonetheless. We're not arguing that point, however.

[Suntzu]

[Atlantis]

There are normal, straightforward lies and then there are more sophisticated lies, as well as half-truths and misleading statements. It's the worst kind of snobbery if it makes you feel better as long as you are lied to in a sophisticated manner.

We all lie. Total sincerity is impossible. Individuals lie to support their self-image. Nations lie by creating national myths without which no community could hold together. Politicians lie to defend a line of policy, which they consider to be best for their country.

Thus, the politicians intentions may be good, but in changing circumstances, what was right today can be wrong tomorrow.

Politicians with longevity know how to adjust their policies to changing circumstances; however, at the end of the day, the objectives of the Empire are indefensible. Trump runs through more lies in a day than previous presidents in a year.

[Rugoz]

There are normal, straightforward lies and then there are more sophisticated lies, as well as half-truths and misleading statements. It's the worst kind of snobbery if it makes you feel better as long as you are lied to in a sophisticated manner.

Most lies in politics are due to gross simplification of complex matters. Trump is a different kind of liar, he simply makes shit up.

Seeing the latter as worse than the former is not "snobbery", it's fucking common sense.

[Atlantis]

Most lies in politics are due to gross simplification of complex matters.

That is one way of putting it; however, it misses the problem.

If politicians tell us that we have to invade or bomb a country because of human rights or because of WMDs, instead of telling us that they want to control the natural resources of other countries, then that is not a "simplification" but a deliberate distortion of the facts motivated by greed.

Trump and the populists are even greedier; however, they managed to portrait establishment politicians as liars exactly because of these obvious lies. Populists, both left and right, are united in using the obvious deceptions of Western geopolitical machinations for their own aims.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

We all lie. Total sincerity is impossible. Individuals lie to support their self-image. Nations lie by creating national myths without which no community could hold together. Politicians lie to defend a line of policy, which they consider to be best for their country.

Thus, the politicians intentions may be good, but in changing circumstances, what was right today can be wrong tomorrow.

Very philosophical, Atlantis, and very useless.

Politicians with longevity know how to adjust their policies to changing circumstances; however, at the end of the day, the objectives of the Empire are indefensible. Trump runs through more lies in a day than previous presidents in a year.

The EU is actually keen to take the torch of benevolent empire from the US and you seem to be more than willing to disseminate that message.

Most lies in politics are due to gross simplification of complex matters.

I know, I know, the constant and relentless terror and injustice that minorities and women face daily in the US is just a simplified message of a complex matter, not an attempt to rally people under the Dem's banner based on fear and resentment. Laughable.

[Rugoz]

I know, I know, the constant and relentless terror and injustice that minorities and women face daily in the US is just a simplified message of a complex matter, not an attempt to rally people under the Dem's banner based on fear and resentment. Laughable.

I don't follow American politics in detail. Clearly Obama was more or less truthful while Trump is a pathological liar.

[Atlantis]

Very philosophical, Atlantis, and very useless.

It may be useless to you, but it's not useless for seeing through the lies you are peddling in this forum.

[Sivad]

Clearly Obama was more or less truthful

Obama was one of the most deceptive presidents in US history. He routinely lied his way into wars, trade deals, and legislation, but his biggest deception was posing as a progressive populist when in reality he was just another center-right corporatist. I'd say Obama was a better liar than Trump for sure, but he certainly wasn't any less of one.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

It may be useless to you, but it's not useless for seeing through the lies you are peddling in this forum.

Likewise. As you noted earlier:

We all lie.

[Rugoz]

:knife: Obama was one of the most deceptive presidents in US history. He routinely lied his way into wars, trade deals, and legislation, but his biggest deception was posing as a progressive populist when in reality he was just another center-right corporatist. I'd say Obama was a better liar than Trump for sure, but he certainly wasn't any less of one.

Oh really, give me examples of those supposed blatant lies.

A difference in political opinion is not a lie.

[Atlantis]

Likewise. As you noted earlier:

Not all lies are created equal, as we have learned with Trump, Kaiserschmarrn, et al.

You obviously belong into the category of liars that substitutes the infinite complexity of reality by a simplistic lie for propagandist aims. It is the 10th circle of hell that is reserved for this type.

[Sivad]

Oh really, give me examples of those supposed blatant lies.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities ... ing/false/

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/lib ... ervention/

https://gop.com/the-lie-used-to-sell-ob ... merica-tbt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... a19060baa8

[Atlantis]

Perhaps the word we are looking for with regard to Trump, et al. is:

Mega-Lie

Why Trump wants to disempower institutions that protect the truth

The US president is attacking the very institutions that are meant to expose lies: universities, the media and the judiciary. Democracy is impossible without them

Tue 7 Feb 2017 11.00 GMT

Donald Trump is hardly the first president to lie. But what distinguishes Trump from previous presidential fibsters are his meta-lies. These claim that the very institutions empowered in a democracy to expose lies are themselves corrupt, dishonest and lying. In spreading his meta-lies, Trump poisons the well of democratic discourse.

The great political thinker Hannah Arendt once dryly observed: “Lies have always been regarded as necessary and justifiable tools … of the statesman’s trade.” Arendt writes that what distinguishes democratic from authoritarian regimes is not the greater honesty of democratic politicians. The saving grace of democracies is the existence of neutral, politically-independent institutions capable of safeguarding truth from the politics of prevarication.

It is precisely these institutions that are the target of Trump’s most persistent lies and calumny.

These institutions – the university, the judiciary and the free press – subject the statements of politicians to truth-testing. In this way, citizens can make informed choices at the polls. Without these institutions – and, just as crucially, without belief in their integrity – democratic self-governance would be impossible.

That is why it is significant that after storefront windows in downtown Berkeley were smashed by non-student rioters, Trump threatened to withdraw federal funds from the University of California, Berkeley, for practicing “violence on innocent people with a different point of view”.

After US district court judge James Robart, a stalwart Republican jurist appointed by George W Bush, issued a nationwide stay on the president’s travel ban, Trump attacked Robart as a “so-called judge”, and encouraged his supporters to “blame him [Robart] and the court system” if “something bad happens”.

And in response to reports of a testy phone call with the Australian prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull, Trump insisted the conversation had been “very civil” and dismissed claims to the contrary as “FAKE NEWS” that the “media lied about”.

These are not ordinary lies. These are meta-lies, second-order lies, lies about the very institutions vouchsafed with testing and examining the truthfulness of political statements.

This reckless disregard of reality reveals an unusual quality to Trump’s lying. Other presidents lied to deceive their opponents. Not so Trump. Trump does not even make the pretense of trying to hoodwink his opponents. Instead, he deceives his supporters. By lying about the neutrality and integrity of our truth-defending institutions, he consolidates his power by depriving his supporters of tools that might authorize an informed, critical assessment of his performance.

It is for this reason that ordinary fact-checking provides a wholly inadequate response to Trump’s lying. Such fact-checking presupposes confidence in the fact-checker, the very trust that Trump labors to systematically undermine with his meta-lies.

For why would I accept your fact-checking if I do not trust the good faith and competence of your testing procedures? What is needed, then, would be a meta-fact checker, an institution that examines whether the fact-checking institutions can be trusted!

Trump’s radical strategy would not be possible in a less fractured media environment and without Trump’s minions of mendacity at Breitbart and Fox News. But the fact that Trump is aided and abetted in his meta-lies only makes them all the more efficacious – and dangerous.

It is these meta-lies that radically undermine confidence in the very institutions that, according to Arendt, distinguish a democracy from an authoritarian regime. And it is the signature of authoritarians that they rule by the truth they themselves manufacture.

What I tried to express in my post above is essentially the same as what Arendt is saying.

Kaiserschmarrn, Sivad, et al. don't only attack the "independent institutions that protect the truth" and "empower democracy," they also attack the institution of the elected president, who, according to them, always produces the same mega-lies as Trump. They are thus promoting the trend towards authoritarian rule and dictatorship.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Not all lies are created equal, as we have learned with Trump, Kaiserschmarrn, et al.

You obviously belong into the category of liars that substitutes the infinite complexity of reality by a simplistic lie for propagandist aims. It is the 10th circle of hell that is reserved for this type.

Let me guess: Only the EU in its infinite wisdom can deal with the infinite complexity of reality.

And your opponents will burn in hell?

Yeah, nothing simplistic about that message.

[Sivad]

Kaiserschmarrn, Sivad, et al. don't only attack the "independent institutions that protect the truth" and "empower democracy," they also attack the institution of the elected president, who, according to them, always produces the same mega-lies as Trump. They are thus promoting the trend towards authoritarian rule and dictatorship.

How does criticizing authority and propaganda promote authoritarian rule and dictatorship? Seems like it promotes precisely the opposite?

[Rugoz]

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/statements/byruling/false/

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/lib ... ervention/

https://gop.com/the-lie-used-to-sell-ob ... merica-tbt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... a19060baa8

If you ask me many of those lies under politifact.com still fall under gross simplification (not all of them). As for Libya, if you read the entire speech it seems obvious that he merely considered regime change too risky at that point. It's not a categorical no. I cannot access the WP article and won't get into the Benghazi crap.

Funny you mention politifact.com by the way, as it lists Trump as the bigger liar by far. It's not even close. Not surprising since basically every one of Trump's tweets is bullshit. There's no way any politician can compete with that. It's a whole new level.

How does criticizing authority and propaganda promote authoritarian rule and dictatorship? Seems like it promotes precisely the opposite?

If the POTUS "criticizes" institutions that serve as checks on his power, it's plain obvious what it promotes.

[Atlantis]

How does criticizing authority and propaganda promote authoritarian rule and dictatorship? Seems like it promotes precisely the opposite?

By suggesting that Obama lied like Trump, you attack the institution of the elected present. That is an invalid simplification and not a criticism. Even if you didn't follow this thread, you should understand that Trump has taken lying to a whole new level.

[Finfinder]

I don't follow American politics in detail. Clearly Obama was more or less truthful while Trump is a pathological liar.

Oh really, give me examples of those supposed blatant lies.

A difference in political opinion is not a lie.

just about every aspect of Obamacare most notable

"you can keep your doctor"

....or how about the lies that consume a lot of this forum like Obama lying about Russian election meddling. You obviously don't follow American politics closely. Might want to consider some new sources as references.

[Rancid]

Is "taming" a synonym for "genocide and rape" in American English?

yes