[Pants-of-dog]

Given that, according to both the ADL and the SPLC, "Christian Identity" is essentially a neo-Nazi movement that has co-opted Christian imagery, I would not use it as an example of "sincerely held religious beliefs".

Why not?

Since slaveholders and segregationists also had sincerely held religious beliefs supporting their racism, there are already historical examples of this. And since the history of racism in the USA is unbroken from that time, there is good reason to believe that these people also continued that tradition of supporting discrimination through religion.

—————————

In that case, your example fails, since it would mean they couldn’t argue in court that their religion requires them to refuse to sell to the “inferior” races. So if you are going to argue against my point, please provide an example that actually applies.

I did not bring up Christian identity congregations as evidence of people using religious arguments to withhold service from blacks.

The points are as follows:
Sincerely held religious beliefs are used as a justification for discrimination.
Religiously inspired homophobia is a thing.
The reverse (i.e. gay inspired Christophobia) is not a thing.

The existence of Christian identity groups is just the most obvious example of this.

The decision can be found here.

Thanks.

If you want an example of sincerely held religious beliefs being used as an argument for denying service to blacks, welcome to Bob Jones University:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jon ... ted_States

[BeheadTheFrog]

Anti-homosexuality isnt a ‘christian identity’, there are many christians, and many established Bishops, who are homosexuals and who support homosexuality.

[Heisenberg]

Why not?

Because neo-Nazis are not generally known for their grasp on Christian theology, their piety, or their connection to "Christian tradition".

Since slaveholders and segregationists also had sincerely held religious beliefs supporting their racism, there are already historical examples of this.

This is a much better example. Another good one is that the Mormon Church refused to ordain black people until 1978.

Of course, religions change over time, as do all human institutions. The fact that a religion used to hold position X is not an argument against that religion holding position Y, and the manifestation of those positions in the real world is not necessarily identical either. I think we can probably agree that the baker in Denver is not morally equivalent to a slaveholder, for example, which makes this line of argument rather strange.

[SolarCross]

Anti-homosexuality isnt a ‘christian identity’, there are many christians, and many established Bishops, who are homosexuals and who support homosexuality.

There are always outliers, anomalies and whatnot.. The fact is their books from the Torah to the New Testament are fairly consistent on declaring homosexual conduct as a fairly serious sin. So it also goes for jews and muslims. The broad sweep of Christianity, like Judaism and Islam, is profoundly anti-gay no matter what oddball you can find who bucks the trend.

[Pants-of-dog]

Because neo-Nazis are not generally known for their grasp on Christian theology, their piety, or their connection to "Christian tradition".

I would saynthat some are and some are not, but there is no logical reason to assume that a Christian identity person has sincere religious beliefs supoorting discrimination.

This is a much better example. Another good one is that the Mormon Church refused to ordain black people until 1978.

Of course, religions change over time, as do all human institutions. The fact that a religion used to hold position X is not an argument against that religion holding position Y, and the manifestation of those positions in the real world is not necessarily identical either. I think we can probably agree that the baker in Denver is not morally equivalent to a slaveholder, for example, which makes this line of argument rather strange.

The only equivalent thing would be that both use religious beliefs as a basis for discrimination.

[Heisenberg]

And non-religious people use other beliefs (often political ideologies) as a basis for discrimination.

Anecdotally, I have met plenty of people who don't like to associate with religious people, conservatives, and Israelis. And of course, if we are going to use historical examples, the Soviet Union violently discriminated against Orthodox Christians (this is a better parallel than "gay-inspired Christophobia", a term introduced to this discussion by you and not used by anyone else).

So, for the purposes of this discussion, it is important to distinguish between forms of discrimination that can/should be prevented, and those that it is probably best to tolerate in the interests of maintaining a free society.

So, for example: a religious person should not be allowed to refuse service to someone because they are gay, but the same person should probably not be compelled to make something stating explicit support for gay marriage. The former is a sensible use of anti-discrimination law, while the latter essentially punishes thought crime.

Likewise, a non-religious person should not be allowed to refuse service to someone because they are Christian or Muslim, but the same person should probably not be compelled to make friends with religious people against their will. The former is a sensible use of anti-discrimination law while the latter essentially punishes thought crime.

[Pants-of-dog]

And non-religious people use other beliefs (often political ideologies) as a basis for discrimination.

Yes, that is true.

Anecdotally, I have met plenty of people who don't like to associate with religious people. And of course, if we are going to use historical examples, the Soviet Union violently discriminated against Orthodox Christians (this is a better parallel than "gay-inspired Christophobia", a term introduced to this discussion by you and not used by anyone else).

Actually, @Doug64 introduced the term.

It is a useful shorthand for intolerance and discrimination targeted at Christians because of their beliefs.

So, for the purposes of this discussion, it is important to distinguish between forms of discrimination that can/should be prevented, and those that it is probably best to tolerate in the interests of maintaining a free society.

So, for example: a religious person should not be allowed to refuse service to someone because they are gay, but the same person should probably not be compelled to make something stating explicit support for gay marriage. The former is a sensible use of anti-discrimination law, while the latter essentially punishes thought crime.

Likewise, a non-religious person should not be allowed to refuse service to someone because they are Christian or Muslim, but the same person should probably not be compelled to make friends with religious people against their will. The former is a sensible use of anti-discrimination law while the latter essentially punishes thought crime.

I will leave that up to the US court system to decide.

[Heisenberg]

Actually, @Doug64 introduced the term.

My apologies - I must have missed that post.

[Beren]

This must be the only thread in Pofo that does not smear Jews, so please, POD, keep the Jews out of this !

Your Soros-obsession is responsible for half of PoFo's Jew-smearing at least. Even your profile picture is Jew-smearing.

[Finfinder]

[Pants-of-dog]

I agree that Muslim bakeries should be compelled to bake gay wedding cakes.

And I agree that conservative Muslims and conservative Christians both share a religiously based prejudice against homosexuals.

[SolarCross]

I agree that Muslim bakeries should be compelled to bake gay wedding cakes.

lol, they would probably kill you advocating that. Also for a self-trumpeting multi-culturalist you are hilariously bad at respecting different cultural conventions and beliefs.

[Pants-of-dog]

lol, they would probably kill you advocating that.

I highly doubt that most Muslims would want my death.

Also for a self-trumpeting multi-culturalist you are hilariously bad at respecting different cultural conventions and beliefs.

Please quote where I said that I am a multiculturalist.

Also, your opinion of whether or not I am respectful of other cultures is irrelevant.

[colliric]

I highly doubt that most Muslims would want my death.

Only needs one crazy Islamic nut with a plan. You'd have to hire security anyway.

[Pants-of-dog]

Only needs one crazy Islamic nut with a plan. You'd have to hire security anyway.

Can you post your irrelevant imaginings without quoting me?

Thanks!

[Finfinder]

I agree that Muslim bakeries should be compelled to bake gay wedding cakes.

And I agree that conservative Muslims and conservative Christians both share a religiously based prejudice against homosexuals.

I'm sure you were here on POFO railing against these bakers in 2015 when that video was made.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm sure you were here on POFO railing against these bakers in 2015 when that video was made.

I do not remember being involved in that debate.

I notice you are not refuting either of my two points.

[Sivad]

Muslim bakeries should be compelled to bake gay wedding cakes.

We all know how a PC fascist would resolve this issue, but most of us here are trying to figure out how to deal with issues of competing rights in a way that allows us to maintain a free and open society. You don't hold any commitment to a free and open society so your opinion just isn't relevant to this conversation.

[Pants-of-dog]

We all know how a PC fascist would resolve this issue, but most of us here are trying to figure out how to deal with issues of competing rights in a way that allows us to maintain a free and open society. You don't hold any commitment to a free and open society so your opinion just isn't relevant to this conversation.

Feel free to ignore my posts then.

Do you agree or disagree with my claim that many conservative Christians and many conservative Muslims both have prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals for religious reasons?

[colliric]

Feel free to ignore my posts then.

Do you agree or disagree with my claim that many conservative Christians and many conservative Muslims both have prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals for religious reasons?

Let's not forget Conservative Orthodox Jews(+Ultra-Orthodox) as well...