Justice Kennedy’s retirement allows Trump to become the restorer of GOP values - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14929177
quetzalcoatl wrote:This view is inconsistent, btw, with republicanism as governing format. The US framers insisted on checking unrestrained majority rule for this (and other) reasons. You can argue virtually any restriction on individuals on the basis of majority rule in isolated locations - thus the supremacy clause in the Constitution.

Abortion can be made either permissible or impermissible, but individual states should not decide. This is Ron Paul level intellectual cowardice. We don't have murder legal in Ohio and illegal in Minnesota.

I like your idea that local communities should have the maximum degree of autonomy possible - but only within the framework of guaranteeing individual rights. You can't argue that respecting individual autonomy is anarchy, then turn around as argue that local autonomy is not. That doesn't make sense.


Constitutional arguments depend on how it is interpreted. Nothing in the Constitution was intended to be permanent, which is why such arguments are disingenuous. The supremacy clause certainly was not intended to prevent states from passing laws on abortion.
You are applying an ‘individual rights’ interpretation as a given when the debate exists because it is not a given. It is simply your view.
#14929179
One Degree wrote:Constitutional arguments depend on how it is interpreted. Nothing in the Constitution was intended to be permanent, which is why such arguments are disingenuous. The supremacy clause certainly was not intended to prevent states from passing laws on abortion.
You are applying an ‘individual rights’ interpretation as a given when the debate exists because it is not a given. It is simply your view.

I both agree and disagree with you. The federal government is to maintain the human rights, but otherwise stay out of state issues. This would be things where states violate those rights (and no, I'm not going to compare abortion to slavery). In that light, defining "human rights" is something no one has, or ever will have, a concrete grasp on. But in this case, I'd have to side with you and allow states to ban abortion. A really stupid thing to do, but if the people and culture demand it... I don't see it being indisputably an "inalienable" human right, and it would be kicked to the Supreme Court again, as it was in this reality.
#14929180
Zagadka wrote:I both agree and disagree with you. The federal government is to maintain the human rights, but otherwise stay out of state issues. This would be things where states violate those rights (and no, I'm not going to compare abortion to slavery). In that light, defining "human rights" is something no one has, or ever will have, a concrete grasp on. But in this case, I'd have to side with you and allow states to ban abortion. A really stupid thing to do, but if the people and culture demand it... I don't see it being indisputably an "inalienable" human right, and it would be kicked to the Supreme Court again, as it was in this reality.


And it's possible to regard abortion as falling short of being a human right, but still argue that it restricting it at the state level is an impermissible attack on personal autonomy. Again, however you define autonomy, it makes no sense to arbitrarily center it on individual states or communities, while giving short shrift to individuals on the one hand and national interest on the other. If localism is to mean anything at all, the individual should have at least as much autonomy as the community.
#14929186
Zagadka wrote:The federal government is to maintain the human rights, but otherwise stay out of state issues....

To be more explicit, the federal government is to maintain human rights that the Constitution recognizes and grants it the authority to maintain. Any rights not so granted are left to the states to maintain or not, as they choose and understand those rights to be. After all, over a hundred million Americans don’t recognize abortion as a human right, and that number constitutes the majority of who knows how many states.

quetzalcoatl wrote:And it's possible to regard abortion as falling short of being a human right, but still argue that it restricting it at the state level is an impermissible attack on personal autonomy....

And where in the Constitution is Congress given the authority to protect “personal autonomy”?
#14929187
SpecialOlympian wrote:Because family planning services should be available to every woman and that supercedes the feelings of the people you're referring to.

That's a purely normative statement. The human race has got along without "family planning services" for almost all of its history. Such services are essentially unnecessary.

SpecialOlympian wrote:It's weird how your whole individual sovereignty thing doesn't extend to women's bodies. Or a doctor's decision to establish his own clinic. Why are you siding with the group against the individual in this case?

Medicine is commerce. Doctors are a licensed and heavily regulated profession. Our constitutions put limits on what the government can do. However, they are given essentially plenary authority on regulating commerce. That's why things like "gun control" are all based on commerce clause abuses.

Zagadka wrote:It might be more tasteful if the GOP wasn't also trying to force abstinence only education, block availability of birth control, giving 0 pregnancy support services, etc.

Patriarchy, monogamy and the traditional family have been the most successful ways of building and sustaining countries. Democrats aren't about that. Rather, they seem to be mostly interested in hedonism.

Zagadka wrote:They can't even comprehend the idea that most of what organizations like Planned Parenthood do aren't abortions. They are birth control and health services for women's reproductive health. Without them, a lot of lower income women have no resources to go to for planning and health for their pregnancies, or places to get birth control.

As noted, the human race has got along without this sort of thing for a long time. For example, Planned Parenthood does not exist in most countries of the world, and they do just fine. Planned Parenthood really isn't very important.

Zagadka wrote:At the same time, are you going to support Islamic law for Muslims in the west, or allow that kind of influence on any legislation in this country?

No. If people want to live under Sharia, they should move to the United Kingdom.

Zagadka wrote:Especially, ESPECIALLY to low income women, single mothers, and thus minorities, making getting out of that life far harder.

The goal of the establishment is to prevent people from getting out of that life and keeping them in low paying work. That's why they like illegal immigration so much.

maz wrote:I have noticed that abortion has become quasi-religious to the left.

Indeed. Suddenly, the left doesn't believe in a "living, breathing constitution."

Zagadka wrote:Yea, their lives get completely derailed permanently, and it is a negative feedback loop that keeps them down.

Think of the bright side. We won't need illegal aliens.

One Degree wrote:Nothing in the Constitution was intended to be permanent, which is why such arguments are disingenuous.

Medical abortions are not in the constitution, nor protected by it. That's why the left is freaking out, because they used to courts to push a political agenda and it is constantly threatened by the fact that it isn't in the constitution. Only by maintaining people who believe in left wing views as a majority on the court can their ideas prevail.
#14929199
Doug64 wrote:To be more explicit, the federal government is to maintain human rights that the Constitution recognizes and grants it the authority to maintain.

Sorry, to be blunt, but fuck the Constitution. It has no relevance to the modern world.

Not that we'll ever get a replacement short of the government dissolving and the states breaking away anyway.
#14929206
Zagadka wrote:Sorry, to be blunt, but fuck the Constitution. It has no relevance to the modern world.

Not that we'll ever get a replacement short of the government dissolving and the states breaking away anyway.
:eh:

You do realize it is the American constitution that gave rise to the modern construct of human rights that you were so concerned about earlier in this thread.

But as usual, your true leftie democrat came out and you rip up the foundation on which your country was founded. Very progressive of you. No wonder people of your political disposition can not even comprehend the concept of national borders.

Anarchist.
#14929212
Albert wrote::eh:

You do realize it is the American constitution that gave rise to the modern construct of human rights that you were so concerned about earlier in this thread.

But as usual, your true leftie democrat

Yes, it is very nice for a document 250 years old. It understands jack shit about how the world works. The founding fathers would vomit in their mouths if they knew we were still using it. The closest we can come is making amendments. They never intended all of this to last forever. The Constitution even keeps slavery and doesn't consider suffrage movements, and has no clue what interstate commerce is like, since it only knows a fraction of what exists. Throw out the rest of the tax structure, too.

It has wording that makes absolutely no sense, like the second amendment, which we'll debate in circles about commas forever because it is addressing a scenario that hasn't existed long ago in anyone's memory.

Anarchist.

You want to go back to the letter of the Constitution?

We could pass amendments forever, but it is patching a sinking boat.

I don't believe in anarchy. I do believe in having relevant government structure for the current situation, not bowing down to a document written centuries ago just because it was revolutionary at the time.
#14929226
Zagadka wrote:The founding fathers would vomit in their mouths if they knew we were still using it.

Why do you think that? They created a means for modifying it.

Zagadka wrote: They never intended all of this to last forever.

Again. What makes you think they intended to come up with something that didn't last? They had already done that with the Articles of Confederation.

Zagadka wrote:The Constitution even keeps slavery and doesn't consider suffrage movements, and has no clue what interstate commerce is like, since it only knows a fraction of what exists.

Their intent wasn't to regulate virtually everything. However, they did want minimal interference by state governments of goods moving across state lines.

Zagadka wrote:Throw out the rest of the tax structure, too.

The progressives already did that early in the 20th Century. The founders envisioned actual equality in terms of taxes. That is, uniform excise taxes like those on gasoline or booze, and capitations like annual franchise taxes on corporations. You can fund all government operations on them with the exception of wealth redistribution systems.

Zagadka wrote:It has wording that makes absolutely no sense, like the second amendment, which we'll debate in circles about commas forever because it is addressing a scenario that hasn't existed long ago in anyone's memory.

The Second Amendment makes perfect sense. It just isn't part of a progressive's ideology. If you want to get rid of the current constitution, your best bet is a heavily armed insurrection.
#14929237
And it's possible to regard abortion as falling short of being a human right, but still argue that it restricting it at the state level is an impermissible attack on personal autonomy. Again, however you define autonomy, it makes no sense to arbitrarily center it on individual states or communities, while giving short shrift to individuals on the one hand and national interest on the other. If localism is to mean anything at all, the individual should have at least as much autonomy as the community.


Of course the anti abortion people would certainly argue that the aborted fetus IS a life and that abortion is an attack on its person. Even a social libertarian like myself could make a pretty good argument around the harm principle at some point.

What this new justice means as a practical matter:

Gerrymandering, so obvious an attack on the concept of individual franchise, will continue and get worse. The effective end of individual voting.

The concepts expressed in Citizens United will be strengthened virtually ending the concept of one-person-one-vote.

Abortion may not end entirely. Perhaps the SCOTUS will allow Roe V. Wade to stand. Later term abortions are over. Take that to the bank. State restrictions on abortion designed to make it more difficult by traumatizing the mother will stand.

Ironically, while taking away the voting power of individuals, the new SCOTUS will increase individual rights to extreme religious beliefs.

The fourth amendment will better constrain the police.

I will be interested to see what happens with privacy laws. Clearly, in some states, only the SCOTUS offers any hope to maintain a reasonable expectation of privacy.

My personal opinion is that if the SCOTUS does become even more strictly constructionist there will be some advantages. Pushing more power down to the states will have some advantages and increase local control. Sure some gays in Georgia may take a hit but freedom of expression in California will be enhanced.

Patriarchy, monogamy and the traditional family have been the most successful ways of building and sustaining countries. Democrats aren't about that. Rather, they seem to be mostly interested in hedonism.


While I might object to the term "hedonism" as being off the mark, I agree with the sentiment. I believe we have replaced the patriarchy not with men and women as equal coreligionists (for the lack of a better term) but with the notion that work defines the individual and left children living in a very permissive environment. I believe that reestablishing a more autocratic family, led by an empowered and more importantly responsible leader will have benefit. We really do need to get a handle on feral kids. The self-centered, career first notion of family today has fucked a whole generation or two of kids pretty badly.

To be more explicit, the federal government is to maintain human rights that the Constitution recognizes and grants it the authority to maintain. Any rights not so granted are left to the states to maintain or not, as they choose and understand those rights to be. After all, over a hundred million Americans don’t recognize abortion as a human right, and that number constitutes the majority of who knows how many states.


This is absolutely correct. We have somehow come to distrust the individual states to govern themselves. We have "naturally" assumed that just about any human proclivity constitutes "protected speech or attaches one to a protected minority. As a social libertarian and fiscal conservative I tend to respect personal right over government control. But I remember that in our system of strict local control and states rights (in which I ardently believe) it is the responsibility of anyone wishing to acquire "rights" or privileges to make the case to the people.

This works pretty well in Arizona where we have an initiative process. Example. The legislature wanted to ban medical marijuana so we just put it on the ballot by collecting sufficient signatures and forced them to accept it. The initiative process is the very definition of democracy at work. So I am not terrified by a more strictly more constructionist SCOTUS. In fact, many conservatives will be disappointed with what they get. Abortion may be banned in Mississippi but it also may be enshrined as a constitutional right in New York.

The progressives already did that early in the 20th Century. The founders envisioned actual equality in terms of taxes. That is, uniform excise taxes like those on gasoline or booze, and capitations like annual franchise taxes on corporations. You can fund all government operations on them with the exception of wealth redistribution systems.


You are mostly right. This is what they imagined. You could, however, fund massive social programs from just about any form of taxation; even one designed to be more "fair". For example a VAT. Remember that just last week the SCOTUS strongly affirmed a states right to tax, even in interstate commerce. This is a big deal. The constitution says little to nothing about how states and the federal government may choose to spend this money. You may wish to recall that even at the birth of this nation several states had pretty robust publicly funded social welfare programs. (Pattered after England's poor laws.) The founders were no stranger to these things so it is unreasonable to believe they wanted them stopped.
#14929238
Zagadka wrote:Sorry, to be blunt, but fuck the Constitution. It has no relevance to the modern world.

No, of course not, it's only the foundational framework of our entire system of government and guarantor of our rights and freedoms. But the Left hates Article V and does its best to promote judges that pretend it doesn't exist as they happily distort the Constitution to fit their own ideology because that article requires a true consensus of the states to make changes, leaving such changes that haven't yet acquired that consensus to the states to manage themselves as much as they are able.

The Left dreams of a national culture built on their ideology and imposed and protected by the federal judiciary, and now they're in a panic because that's all threatened by one Supreme Court pick.
#14929397
Doug64 wrote:No, of course not, it's only the foundational framework of our entire system of government and guarantor of our rights and freedoms.

Of course it is.

So what?

Why would you insist on following an outdated document that not only doesn't cover current issues but could never anticipate them at all, when you could make one perfectly adapted to your situation?

What is your opinion on the Articles of Confederation government? Because that was the predecessor to our current government. Why can that be trashed and replaced? Because it wasn't working.

This isn't a leftist conspiracy theory. This is pure common sense. There is no agenda I am pushing about the content of a new constitution, leftist or otherwise.

I don't care about Article V. Hell, include everything we have in the new constitution. Just write it to apply to a world that exists outside historical fantasies. Hell, consult the Federalist Papers and other discussion from the Founding Fathers, but also keep in mind that it has to be formed in a modern framework. They literally argued about it until they all died. Those documents expand greatly on the content of the Constitution, including statements that it is not permanent. It is a contract between the people and government designed to be changed.

EDIT

Trump to become the restorer of GOP values

GOP values now include grabbing pussies and banging porn stars before getting divorced twice. You lot have made some strange company.
#14929415
@Zagadka We seem to have similar views on the constitution, but it is the Democrats currently demanding ‘precedent’ should override popular demand on abortion. Both sides argue whatever suits them. Along with a new constitution, I suggest precedent only be given ‘informational value’.
The Supreme Court making decisions on precedent is a total disregard of their purpose.
#14929441
Zagadka wrote:Why would you insist on following an outdated document that not only doesn't cover current issues but could never anticipate them at all, when you could make one perfectly adapted to your situation?

I don't think the Constitution is outdated overall, though aspects of it could use some updating. But we have an amendment process for making changes, if you can get a consensus of the states to agree with you. And if you can't get that consensus then it needs to stay just as it is and you can try to make the changes you feel are necessary at the state level.
#14929512
Which current issues doesn't it cover?


LGBT Rights or restrictions.

Privacy in modern times.

The rights of states to impose a minimum wage without government interference.

In fact, it is weak on states rights in general.

I would like to see an amendment that eliminates gerrymandering.

The provision of two senators for each state, resulting in one senator in Wyoming representing 290,000 people and one in California representing 19 million. Given the absolute gridlock in government this results in each voter in Wyoming having as much say in government as does 65 Californians.

Disallow corporations to contribute to elections. (It was a felony in early America.)

Campaign finance reform limiting individual contributions to reasonable levels. The fact that two Americans can give one billion dollars to a presidential campaign is nothing short of absurd and virtually eliminates the principle of one-man-one-vote.

I can think of tons of other "fixes" we need. Before you go off, I freely admit: That democracy is essentially dead in America. I can't name a single major politician who believes in the concept of equality of voting influence. And that there is no way in hell that these changes will ever happen.

The old Conservative notion of states rights, in which I believe, is also dead. Modern republicans are killing it quickly. Fortunately (I guess) neither party wants it at all.
#14929948
There's a lot of things that can happen. If you don't believe that Scalia was assassinated, people act as if a bunch of men in their 60's and 70's are young but they're practically only young compared to Ginsburg at this point.

And all these liberals freaking out now, as if it wasn't obvious that Trump was going to get a Supreme Court pick, as if replacing conservative justices with conservative justices is so unprecedented... wait if/until he replaces a liberal with a conservative, that would be the smart time to freak out. But as we've seen, they are not thinking ahead these days in terms of picking their fights. There might even be SCOTUS appointment issue fatigue if/when the time comes for a liberal justice to retire.

Ultimately though I do find the hubris that caused this situation amusing. Ginsburg was urged to retire while Obama was President and had the power to set her appointment but she refused to do so. Kennedy is humble enough to retire when Trump can pick his replacement. This is called being humble which can be, you know, smart... liberals act as if they are morally superior to everyone but don't seem capable of the realizing the most basic forms of wisdom if it clashes with their ego at all.

Think about that, Ginsburg is basically their ethical paragon.
#14929957
quetzalcoatl wrote:The same place in the Constitution that recognizes that corporations are people.

You mean recognizes that corporations are made up of people.
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