[One Degree]

Your reply clearly indicates u didnt even bother to read/watch the info I provided. Go do so, then we can discuss.

Like most on here, I ignore most videos when no summary or time spots to go to are offered. Why would I watch every video offered without being given a reason why I should? If you think this video makes valid points, then tell us what they are. We can then choose whether or not we want to watch.

[XogGyux]

Like most on here, I ignore most videos when no summary or time spots to go to are offered. Why would I watch every video offered without being given a reason why I should? If you think this video makes valid points, then tell us what they are. We can then choose whether or not we want to watch.

At least you are honest. I offered the videos to quickly summarize what otherwise would take a post 3-4 pages long. They are between the 2 of them 10 mins long so it is not like im asking you to watch a 2 hours long documentary or something.

Had you watched you would have realized that your previous post is silly.
As you acknowledged prior, SSN can be given to non-citizens. This is actually not a bad thing. Legal residents, are non-citizens yet they are legal immigrants and they contribute to society by paying their SS, their taxes, etc. So clearly SSN is not a good way to somehow identify and manage voting (or even other things pointed out in the videos). Furthermore, it does not have any kind of protection mechanisms or identifying features (such as a picture) thus they are not good for anything. They are shitty, it just happens to be the only shitty thing we have.

Your own post refutes itself btw. In one hand, you said "slap a picture and it would work fairly well" and in the other hand, you say "non-citizens have them"... SO what is it?

[One Degree]

At least you are honest. I offered the videos to quickly summarize what otherwise would take a post 3-4 pages long. They are between the 2 of them 10 mins long so it is not like im asking you to watch a 2 hours long documentary or something.

Had you watched you would have realized that your previous post is silly.
As you acknowledged prior, SSN can be given to non-citizens. This is actually not a bad thing. Legal residents, are non-citizens yet they are legal immigrants and they contribute to society by paying their SS, their taxes, etc. So clearly SSN is not a good way to somehow identify and manage voting (or even other things pointed out in the videos). Furthermore, it does not have any kind of protection mechanisms or identifying features (such as a picture) thus they are not good for anything. They are shitty, it just happens to be the only shitty thing we have.

Your own post refutes itself btw. In one hand, you said "slap a picture and it would work fairly well" and in the other hand, you say "non-citizens have them"... SO what is it?

You appeared to offer it as a solution if I did. I simply pointed out changes that would make it acceptable to me. I did not contradict myself. I clearly said non citizens having them would have to change. Personally, I think state picture IDs are the best of what is currently available. I also see no need to worry about such a small minority that claim getting a state ID is an insurmountable problem. I am not sure I want such incompetents voting anyway. We can offer them assistance though.
The ID should state if they are a citizen,

Edit: @XogGyux
I tried to watch your videos. The first immediately starts out by telling be it is biased. I watched it anyway. It was simplistic justifications for not doing something that needs done. It offered nothing that can not be corrected if we made it a requirement. Quoting one person at the end who says it is not necessary is not compelling.
The second video I stopped watching when they decided I needed a grade school class in Social Security history.
These videos were exactly what I figured they were and offered me nothing I did not already know.

Edit 2: I will go further and accuse the first video of lying. I live in a senior community. You can’t exist here without a state photo ID. Only 3 million without ID and we have 30 million illegals? Curious.

[XogGyux]

You appeared to offer it as a solution if I did. I simply pointed out changes that would make it acceptable to me. I did not contradict myself. I clearly said non citizens having them would have to change. Personally, I think state picture IDs are the best of what is currently available. I also see no need to worry about such a small minority that claim getting a state ID is an insurmountable problem. I am not sure I want such incompetents voting anyway. We can offer them assistance though.
The ID should state if they are a citizen,

Well, clearly if you had watched the videos you would have known that i was not offering a solution, merely pointing out the problem and that such a solution is actually trickier than it sounds in theory.
I am all in favor of voter ID but it would have to be the right ID. It would have to be universal, have protections in place, not expensive to obtain, and a few other characteristics. If you were to allow any and all picture ID to work for vote (e.g. library card, college card, employee badge?) then perhaps I would be on board with this. (Ofcourse this does not even negate voter fraud as obviously the more kinds of ID you accept the least likely you are to be able to have people at the voting polls able to identify which ones are fake). Furthermore, do understand that Picture ID card does not even address whether or not you are a legal citizen either, it just says you are you even if you are an illegal Think about it, if you somehow are claiming that non-citizens/illegals are voting, don't you realize that they can still have a driver's license even if they are non-citizens/illegals? Who is this requirement really trying to prevent from voting anyway? (Hint: the answer is in the videos you did not watch.)
Like I said, propose that the government issue a single, standardized card to every citizen and you got my support for this 100%.

[One Degree]

Well, clearly if you had watched the videos you would have known that i was not offering a solution, merely pointing out the problem and that such a solution is actually trickier than it sounds in theory.
I am all in favor of voter ID but it would have to be the right ID. It would have to be universal, have protections in place, not expensive to obtain, and a few other characteristics. If you were to allow any and all picture ID to work for vote (e.g. library card, college card, employee badge?) then perhaps I would be on board with this. (Ofcourse this does not even negate voter fraud as obviously the more kinds of ID you accept the least likely you are to be able to have people at the voting polls able to identify which ones are fake). Furthermore, do understand that Picture ID card does not even address whether or not you are a legal citizen either, it just says you are you even if you are an illegal
Like I said, propose that the government issue a single, standardized card to every citizen and you got my support for this 100%.

I added edits that covered these things. The ID should clearly say if you are a citizen.

[XogGyux]

I added edits that covered these things. The ID should clearly say if you are a citizen.

Then NONE of the proposed laws to date for Voter ID are even valid.. My driver's license is a valid ID by most states and it does not says I am a citizen. Furthermore, non-citizens can obtain driver's licenses. Furthermore, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of fake driver's licenses in the hands of teenagers that want to get alcohol and get into bars, what stops "illegal aliens" from getting their hands in these as well?

[One Degree]

Then NONE of the proposed laws to date for Voter ID are even valid.. My driver's license is a valid ID by most states and it does not says I am a citizen. Furthermore, non-citizens can obtain driver's licenses. Furthermore, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of fake driver's licenses in the hands of teenagers that want to get alcohol and get into bars, what stops "illegal aliens" from getting their hands in these as well?

Saying a system can be cheated is an excuse for not implementing it makes no sense. We would not have a single government program based upon that reasoning. Should we apply it to our safety net programs?
State ID’s are the leaders in trying to prevent counterfeits. They are the likely experts to use. They also offering the easiest access to citizens.
What do you make of your video saying there are only 3 million without photo ID when there are 30 million illegals? Seems like election fraud would not be that difficult with those statistics.

[XogGyux]

Saying a system can be cheated is an excuse for not implementing it makes no sense. We would not have a single government program based upon that reasoning. Should we apply it to our safety net programs?
State ID’s are the leaders in trying to prevent counterfeits. They are the likely experts to use. They also offering the easiest access to citizens.
What do you make of your video saying there are only 3 million without photo ID when there are 30 million illegals? Seems like election fraud would not be that difficult with those statistics.

Let’s analyze the last 2 pages worth of “debate” if we can even call it so.

- First you make a claim that there is rampant voter fraud going around in California with no evidence.
1. - When this is pointed out to you, you ignore the point and don’t show evidence and the closest you get to bring something that supports your point is merely extrapolation that you think it MIGHT be happning because they allow voting in some lesser, less impactful elections at the local level. Furthermore, at this point you don’t even make the attempt to quantify how severe this “fraud” is. After all, there is a huge difference between few dozen cases nationwide that have been confirmed to the millions claimed in just 1 state. Perspective matter. I am sure there are old people that vote twice because they forgot. Individuals that intentionally vote in two states and many other examples, but this is by enlarge, as far as the evidence that we have, a relatively tiny and inconsequential problem.

- Then, without really addressing proof of your point, you go into a tangent trying to point out what you think would be a solution to this problem. I want to point out at this point you have not even proved that the problem that you are trying to solve even exists to begin with. The problem is, the solution that you are proposing and criticizing your opposition for, IS NOT even addressing the problem that you think you are trying to solve. As it was pointed out prior, proving that I’m Juan Gonzalez does not proves that I am a legitimate, lawful voter. It could perhaps facilitate identification of those that perhaps prevent double voting if somehow you had a system in place for the government to communicate between states electronically. (Believe me when I tell you, communication between states/jurisdictions by the government and even by companies is a Joke. Working in the healthcare sector, I have grown more and more irritated, infuriated and disappointed at this flaw that we have. We waste BILLIONS if not trillions because of poor, shitty or most times non-existent communication - short rant over -).

At this point, I urge you to take 10mins in a dark room and think this very carefully and deeply before just posting a 3-4 line reply without reading and digesting the information.
The solution that you are proposing does not address the problem that you think exists. And the problem that you think exists, there is no evidence that supports its existence. So really? What exactly is the point.
Well, if you look at the evidence that DOES exist, you do realize that in most (not all) cases there is something in common and that is trying to weed out people that you are anticipating will vote against you. That’s why in a deep red, pro-gun state you can vote with your cocealed license.... while a student ID, you can’t.

[One Degree]

Let’s analyze the last 2 pages worth of “debate” if we can even call it so.

- First you make a claim that there is rampant voter fraud going around in California with no evidence.
1. - When this is pointed out to you, you ignore the point and don’t show evidence and the closest you get to bring something that supports your point is merely extrapolation that you think it MIGHT be happning because they allow voting in some lesser, less impactful elections at the local level. Furthermore, at this point you don’t even make the attempt to quantify how severe this “fraud” is. After all, there is a huge difference between few dozen cases nationwide that have been confirmed to the millions claimed in just 1 state. Perspective matter. I am sure there are old people that vote twice because they forgot. Individuals that intentionally vote in two states and many other examples, but this is by enlarge, as far as the evidence that we have, a relatively tiny and inconsequential problem.

- Then, without really addressing proof of your point, you go into a tangent trying to point out what you think would be a solution to this problem. I want to point out at this point you have not even proved that the problem that you are trying to solve even exists to begin with. The problem is, the solution that you are proposing and criticizing your opposition for, IS NOT even addressing the problem that you think you are trying to solve. As it was pointed out prior, proving that I’m Juan Gonzalez does not proves that I am a legitimate, lawful voter. It could perhaps facilitate identification of those that perhaps prevent double voting if somehow you had a system in place for the government to communicate between states electronically. (Believe me when I tell you, communication between states/jurisdictions by the government and even by companies is a Joke. Working in the healthcare sector, I have grown more and more irritated, infuriated and disappointed at this flaw that we have. We waste BILLIONS if not trillions because of poor, shitty or most times non-existent communication - short rant over -).

At this point, I urge you to take 10mins in a dark room and think this very carefully and deeply before just posting a 3-4 line reply without reading and digesting the information.
The solution that you are proposing does not address the problem that you think exists. And the problem that you think exists, there is no evidence that supports its existence. So really? What exactly is the point.
Well, if you look at the evidence that DOES exist, you do realize that in most (not all) cases there is something in common and that is trying to weed out people that you are anticipating will vote against you. That’s why in a deep red, pro-gun state you can vote with your cocealed license.... while a student ID, you can’t.

You credit me with making a claim I never made and then criticize me for what you invented? Lmao
You then say I introduced the solutions. I didn’t reread the thread but I am pretty sure you introduced it to the conversation.
I don’t need 10 minutes anywhere to disregard total bullshit. How about addressing something I actually said?

[Pants-of-dog]

Here is a link to study that shows that voter Id laws disproportionately affect blacks and Hispanics:
https://amstat.tandfonline.com/doi/full ... -jLAYoTGhC

Mind you, @One Degree never explained why illegals should not be allowed to vote.

[One Degree]

Here is a link to study that shows that voter Id laws disproportionately affect blacks and Hispanics:
https://amstat.tandfonline.com/doi/full ... -jLAYoTGhC

Mind you, @One Degree never explained why illegals should not be allowed to vote.

I was not impressed with your link starting with it using Texas and you implying this is indicative of the US and the usual justifications of how the information was manipulated. Meh.
Why would I see the need to provide evidence why they shouldn’t vote? This view the establishment is required to provide evidence against what some random group demands is ‘bubble land reasoning’. It is up to them to make their arguments why a change should be made.

[Pants-of-dog]

I was not impressed with your link starting with it using Texas and you implying this is indicative of the US and the usual justifications of how the information was manipulated. Meh.

Whether or not you are impressed is immaterial.

Science does not care what you believe.

Why would I see the need to provide evidence why they shouldn’t vote? This view the establishment is required to provide evidence against what some random group demands is ‘bubble land reasoning’. It is up to them to make their arguments why a change should be made.

I already made an argument: because democracies are supposed to be accountable to the people that they govern. Illegals are governed by the US government, so logically they should get the vote.

Now, you can address this or make an argument why illegals should not get the vote.

Before 1926, it was legal for non-citizens to vote.

[One Degree]

Whether or not you are impressed is immaterial.

Science does not care what you believe.

Science is not the determinant of social issues. That would be dystopia imo.

I already made an argument: because democracies are supposed to be accountable to the people that they govern. Illegals are governed by the US government, so logically they should get the vote.

I don’t see any logic here

Now, you can address this or make an argument why illegals should not get the vote.

I still see no need to do that. It is illegal. I need no further argument.

Before 1926, it was legal for non-citizens to vote.

I am not familiar with what you are referring to. Source please.

[XogGyux]

Here is a link to study that shows that voter Id laws disproportionately affect blacks and Hispanics:
https://amstat.tandfonline.com/doi/full ... -jLAYoTGhC

Mind you, @One Degree never explained why illegals should not be allowed to vote.

Actually agree Illegals should not be allowed to vote. Not prisoners either. The presumption is that these individuals would not be an “accepted” part of the community, thus, they should not be taking part of the decisions.
What it is perhaps a more interesting but far more complex question, is whether these people should be illegals at all. The immigration system in this country is antiquated and needs reform. In part to integrate a large number of society members, and in part to differentiate those who should not be part of our society.

@One Degree I will take a break from answering your posts. It has become evident to me that you have no interest what so ever in the actual debate and are just trolling. From now on I will only address your posts if I think other people reading my post might benefit from my answer. You are no longer the target of my discussion.

[One Degree]

Actually agree Illegals should not be allowed to vote. Not prisoners either. The presumption is that these individuals would not be an “accepted” part of the community, thus, they should not be taking part of the decisions.
What it is perhaps a more interesting but far more complex question, is whether these people should be illegals at all. The immigration system in this country is antiquated and needs reform. In part to integrate a large number of society members, and in part to differentiate those who should not be part of our society.

@One Degree I will take a break from answering your posts. It has become evident to me that you have no interest what so ever in the actual debate and are just trolling. From now on I will only address your posts if I think other people reading my post might benefit from my answer. You are no longer the target of my discussion.

That’s up to you. You can avoid other views of the world or you can communicate and maybe learn something new. I have watched the US be brainwashed into a limited understanding by the media for 50 years. Most flee any challenge to that ingrained view. I might be way off course or I may understand something you don’t. Do what you want.

[Pants-of-dog]

Science is not the determinant of social issues. That would be dystopia imo.

That was not my claim.

The point is that it is incorrect to claim that illegals are voting en masse.

When Trump claims that they are voting, he is wrong.

When you claim they are voting, you are wrong.

The science shows this, and your opinions about science are completely irrelevant and do not changenthe fact that illegals are not voting.

I don’t see any logic here

So no rebuttal. Okay.

I still see no need to do that. It is illegal. I need no further argument.

And no argument.

I am not familiar with what you are referring to. Source please.

Here you go.

[One Degree]

That was not my claim.

The point is that it is incorrect to claim that illegals are voting en masse.

I did not claim they were voting en masse

When Trump claims that they are voting, he is wrong.

When you claim they are voting, you are wrong.

So, now your ‘science’ saying they are not voting en masse = no illegals are voting?

The science shows this, and your opinions about science are completely irrelevant and do not changenthe fact that illegals are not voting.

No science does not show this. one study you selected for Texas supposedly does.

So no rebuttal. Okay.



And no argument.

Neither were required as stated. Stop conflating things and there might be something to rebut. First you have to make a coherent statement to be rebutted.

Here you go.

So no source. Just something you made up?

[Pants-of-dog]

I did not claim they were voting en masse

So, now your ‘science’ saying they are not voting en masse = no illegals are voting?

No science does not show this. one study you selected for Texas supposedly does.

None of this is an argument.

Anyway, even if a few illegals are voting, not enough are voting to make any difference.

Neither were required as stated. Stop conflating things and there might be something to rebut. First you have to make a coherent statement to be rebutted.

So no source. Just something you made up?

And still no argument.

Please note that George Washington and many of the other founders were not legal migrants.

[One Degree]

Anyway, even if a few illegals are voting, not enough are voting to make any difference.

You have no way of knowing if that is true.

Please note that George Washington and many of the other founders were not legal migrants.

He was born in Virginia. He wasn’t any kind of migrant. The US population was probably under 3 million at the time. It was under 4 million in 1790.

[Pants-of-dog]

You have no way of knowing if that is true.

...except the evidence I already presented.

He was born in Virginia. He wasn’t any kind of migrant. The US population was probably under 3 million at the time. It was under 4 million in 1790.

If his parents did not legally migrate, then he was not a legal migrant.

Plus, others were not born in the US at all.

If these guys got votes, then you already have the evidence you need for alien suffrage.