[Steve_American]

The 'How Do You Pay' question is never asked when the bill would cut the taxes of the rich, or pay to invade Iraq, or build a wall on the Mex. border, etc.
It is only asked when the bill would help an American have a better life.
And Medicare for All with zero co-pay would save $1.2T per year (or more) compared to what we (America) spends now on healthcare, health insurance, etc.

[Verv]

I think the problem with that line of thinking, though, is the belief that tax cuts happen in a vacuum. Everyone hopes that the tax cuts will result in respective decreases in spending in other areas, and this isn't even the prime motivation for the tax cuts, right. Tax cuts largely operate off of the idea that the government is not entitled to take an unlimited amount of your money.

It's just not as obvious of a 1:1 as creating a massive new health care system.

Everyone else can also kind of feel it too if they are not in the far left camp, right. The numbers she invokes are theoretical garbage that will not match up to reality when the rubber hits the road.

[Steve_American]

@Verv,
So, 2 negative replies,but not one fact cited to rebut her.
The $1.2T number is from a different video I posted. It comes from a very large paper, a large study.
The US spends now more of its GDP on healthcare than any other advanced nation, far more.
If we had Medicare for All the study showed that we would spend less and get far better care.
I do assume that there would be lines and waiting for a time while we trained more nurses, etc.
There is a huge unmet need now and the infrastructure to handle it is not sufficient to suddenly meet it.
It's like what would happen if starving people in a 3rd world nation suffering a drought AND we replied by giving them money and let McDonalds build and open Burger joints to feed them. But, this all my expectation. The videos never mention this possible problem.

But, you 2 attack it with zero facts. Can't you do better than that? Can't you think of or find any facts to backup your attacks?

[Tainari88]

@Verv,
So, 2 negative replies,but not one fact cited to rebut her.
The $1.2T number is from a different video I posted. It comes from a very large paper, a large study.
The US spends now more of its GDP on healthcare than any other advanced nation, far more.
If we had Medicare for All the study showed that we would spend less and get far better care.
I do assume that there would be lines and waiting for a time while we trained more nurses, etc.
There is a huge unmet need now and the infrastructure to handle it is not sufficient to suddenly meet it.
It's like what would happen if starving people in a 3rd world nation suffering a drought AND we replied by giving them money and let McDonalds build and open Burger joints to feed them. But, this all my expectation. The videos never mention this possible problem.

But, you 2 attack it with zero facts. Can't you do better than that? Can't you think of or find any facts to backup your attacks?

They all discount her. I am used to that. Puerto Rican women socialists. All these asshole males with arrogance think they know more. Lol. Ocasio-Cortez defeated a high ranking Democratic establishment candidate with a lot more money than she had.

I used to be a community organizer and had to take trainings on dealing with how to deal with political campaigns. Her winning strategy was intelligent. Especially her messaging on her campaign. Here it is: (mind you she is appealing to New York City voters who are not Wonder bread Evangelists--that is not her district).

It covers who she was going for. And it wasn't the wealthy.

Let them keep discounting her and all the young socialists. With time? They will pressure. But? The problems are huge. She thinks she can win a lot of voters in the big red states and rural America. With the right messaging. She is young. Can be in politics a long time and who knows how well she does?

What makes me smile, is that socialists have been growing exponentially because the wishy washy liberals with corporate speeches in the six figures are not convincing the working class in many diverse cities all over the USA.

Both establishment candidates from both parties need to stop accepting bribe payoff money from corporate lobbyists and special interest groups. They need to change. If not? The answer are people like Ocasio-Cortez who won't accept the dough for covering for their sellout political proposals that never serve working class people.

But maybe the fools in the right think some billionaire pathological liar represents the working class for them? If they do? Got some serious growing up to do in politics.

Live and learn. The Billionaire liars are not going to do jack for you. Never will. But....they continue loving to pay out of pocket for health care, and go bankrupt and do this or that rather than face the fact that they need universal health care, and their kids need to go to college without some quarter of a million dollar debt.

What she and the other democratic socialists are proposing are not pie in the sky stuff. Many industrialized nations already did it and run those programs. They are doable.

But if you believe in billionaires, millionaires and liars extraordinaire? Got to learn the hard way. Stay sick, go bankrupt, have the corporate banks take over your house and foreclose, lose your IRA's and retirement, have your kids work low wages for many decades, bail out banks, have socialism for wall street investors and hedge fund managers and rawhide capitalism and death for the working class families.

Choose your destiny. It is up to you!

[XogGyux]

They all discount her. I am used to that. Puerto Rican women socialists. All these asshole males with arrogance think they know more. Lol. Ocasio-Cortez defeated a high ranking Democratic establishment candidate with a lot more money than she had.

I used to be a community organizer and had to take trainings on dealing with how to deal with political campaigns. Her winning strategy was intelligent. Especially her messaging on her campaign. Here it is: (mind you she is appealing to New York City voters who are not Wonder bread Evangelists--that is not her district).

It covers who she was going for. And it wasn't the wealthy.

Sometimes I wish I had the power to call their bluff and abolish social security and medicare/medicaid... thats socialism in their eyes isn't it?

[Tainari88]

Sometimes I wish I had the power to call their bluff and abolish social security and medicare/medicaid... thats socialism in their eyes isn't it?

XogGyux, the amount of IGNORANCE about socialism in this nation is staggering. They don't know anything about it. The young grew up without the old Red scare tactics of the fifties. But the old FDR programs are being cut. Anyone proposing getting rid of medicare and social security is basically politically dead. But that is what happens when people are not getting educations on what all this stuff means.

Be back tomorrow to discuss. One note XogGyux--things are going to change. Too many things are wrong and people know it.

Life is not what they think it is.

One interesting note? Socialism is an established political platform in Latin America and many parts of Africa and even Asia, and parts of Europe as well. The USA is a desert of knoweldge about that.

[Verv]

@Verv,
So, 2 negative replies,but not one fact cited to rebut her.
The $1.2T number is from a different video I posted. It comes from a very large paper, a large study.
The US spends now more of its GDP on healthcare than any other advanced nation, far more.
If we had Medicare for All the study showed that we would spend less and get far better care.
I do assume that there would be lines and waiting for a time while we trained more nurses, etc.
There is a huge unmet need now and the infrastructure to handle it is not sufficient to suddenly meet it.
It's like what would happen if starving people in a 3rd world nation suffering a drought AND we replied by giving them money and let McDonalds build and open Burger joints to feed them. But, this all my expectation. The videos never mention this possible problem.

But, you 2 attack it with zero facts. Can't you do better than that? Can't you think of or find any facts to backup your attacks?

I think you already know what the issue of this is...

Many Americans believe there is no constitutional basis for the federal government coming up with this program, for one.

And for two, wew also do not think that our program will function exactly as you say it would.

A model which says it will save us money that was created expressly to sell this to us is probably not the best basis.

But hey, if you want to claim total victory because people on PoFo are not downloading the report and line by line analyzing it & refuting the conclusions and numbers it comes up with, IDK.

[Verv]

XogGyux, the amount of IGNORANCE about socialism in this nation is staggering. They don't know anything about it. The young grew up without the old Red scare tactics of the fifties. But the old FDR programs are being cut. Anyone proposing getting rid of medicare and social security is basically politically dead. But that is what happens when people are not getting educations on what all this stuff means.

The same "red scare" type tactics are being used right now to dissuade people from nationalism, BTW.

It is a part of every society and every culture.

People only complain when they are used against the things that they personally enjoy.

[Finfinder]

Occasio made someone else look dumb?! that guy must be fucking retarded then.....

Palin is Mensa compared to her.

[One Degree]

Her argument assumes the medical lobby is just going to accept this astronomical loss of income. Any reasonable person knows that is not going to happen.

[XogGyux]

Her argument assumes the medical lobby is just going to accept this astronomical loss of income. Any reasonable person knows that is not going to happen.

Oh well, she is wrong because rich people don't like this...
Wonderful.

[One Degree]

Oh well, she is wrong because rich people don't like this...
Wonderful.

Are you volunteering to take a pay cut for it?

[XogGyux]

Are you volunteering to take a pay cut for it?

We already did. Who do you think pay's for people that do not have insurance? it is either the government or people with health insurance. Since I both pay health insurance and taxes Im already paying for people that have no insurance.

[One Degree]

We already did. Who do you think pay's for people that do not have insurance? it is either the government or people with health insurance. Since I both pay health insurance and taxes Im already paying for people that have no insurance.

Where do you think your employer will recoup that $1.2 trillion dollars? I will bet it will come out of your pay instead of the CEO’s. Your new, I would think job cuts would be a concern to you.
You have much more reason to be concerned than I do. I am just saying it is naive of her to promote it as saving money, when we know that is not going to happen in the US. It will cost us at least the same as we are paying now, or it will never happen.

[XogGyux]

Where do you think your employer will recoup that $1.2 trillion dollars? I will bet it will come out of your pay instead of the CEO’s. Your new, I would think job cuts would be a concern to you.
You have much more reason to be concerned than I do. I am just saying it is naive of her to promote it as saving money, when we know that is not going to happen in the US. It will cost us at least the same as we are paying now, or it will never happen.

Again, you fail to consider all the variables that's why you cannot analyze anything properly.
My employer is already paying for my health insurance. Technically I pay a little bit, around ~$50/ month but my employer pays the rest which is many times higher than this. This is money that they would NOT have to pay if there is a universal system.
You are under the impression that it is a matter of paying vs not paying. The reality that you have not considered because your vision is tunneled is that SOMEONE IS ALREADY PAYING FOR IT, IT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES. The problem is, this cost is hidden from the consumer by means of inflated health insurance costs and by piggybacking on Medicare. Medicare will go bankrupt soon.

[One Degree]

Again, you fail to consider all the variables that's why you cannot analyze anything properly.
My employer is already paying for my health insurance. Technically I pay a little bit, around ~$50/ month but my employer pays the rest which is many times higher than this. This is money that they would NOT have to pay if there is a universal system.
You are under the impression that it is a matter of paying vs not paying. The reality that you have not considered because your vision is tunneled is that SOMEONE IS ALREADY PAYING FOR IT, IT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES. The problem is, this cost is hidden from the consumer by means of inflated health insurance costs and by piggybacking on Medicare. Medicare will go bankrupt soon.

You gave the impression you were a medical doctor working in the medical field. This was the ‘loss’ I was talking about that would affect you. How you thought I was talking about your insurance premium must be due to a cognitive dysfunction. This would also account for you somehow believing your employer will still not be required to pay in.
Inflated ‘health insurance costs’ are not the only problem. You also have inflated medical charges, especially by 3rd parties owning the testing equipment. You also have the fact hospital administrators are the highest paid people in every community except major metropolitan areas. There are many reasons for the high cost.

[XogGyux]

You gave the impression you were a medical doctor working in the medical field. This was the ‘loss’ I was talking about that would affect you. How you thought I was talking about your insurance premium must be due to cognitive dysfunction. This would also account for you somehow believing your employer will still not be required to pay in.
Inflated ‘health insurance costs’ are not the only problem. You also have inflated medical charges, especially by 3rd parties owning the testing equipment. You also have the fact hospital administrators are the highest paid people in every community except major metropolitan areas. There are many reasons for the high cost.

Look there are a million and 2 reasons why healthcare costs are through the roof. You are right, CEO and administrators are making a shiton of money that is nowhere near their performance nor their quality. In the place I work, the CEO probably has a salary in the 7 figures yet he has cut the number of phlebotomists working at the hospital and nurses so when you order a lab or test "STAT" it can very well take the whole day when in reality the test itself takes 40mins or so. At the same time, they put pressure for doctors to discharge patients from the hospital quickly which sometimes leads to less than ideal care. There is also a lot of waste, if you order morphine it may come in a 10cc vial but you might only need 2cc and the rest is thrown away because it cannot be recycled for sanitary reasons but the hospital would not order 2cc vials because it does not matter to them they will simply charge 10cc vial to insurance. Doctors order dozens of unecessary tests to cover their asses because we are scared to death of frivolous lawyers. If you say in an ER you have chest pain, you are virtually guaranteed to get admitted no matter how incredibly unlikely it is for you to have a serious condition that warrants admission. Or what about the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of education loans that healthcare profesionals (not just doctors, nurses and technicians as well). Yes there are many things you could tackle and improve but saying "It is complicated, lets not think about it" is literally the WORSE thing to do.
The truth is, we currently play for uninsured people. Either via premium or taxes. Getting universal healthcare will only make it so that there is transparency and every penny can be tracked so that then we can take further actions to further improve the system.

[One Degree]

Look there are a million and 2 reasons why healthcare costs are through the roof. You are right, CEO and administrators are making a shiton of money that is nowhere near their performance nor their quality. In the place I work, the CEO probably has a salary in the 7 figures yet he has cut the number of phlebotomists working at the hospital and nurses so when you order a lab or test "STAT" it can very well take the whole day when in reality the test itself takes 40mins or so. At the same time, they put pressure for doctors to discharge patients from the hospital quickly which sometimes leads to less than ideal care. There is also a lot of waste, if you order morphine it may come in a 10cc vial but you might only need 2cc and the rest is thrown away because it cannot be recycled for sanitary reasons but the hospital would not order 2cc vials because it does not matter to them they will simply charge 10cc vial to insurance. Doctors order dozens of unecessary tests to cover their asses because we are scared to death of frivolous lawyers. If you say in an ER you have chest pain, you are virtually guaranteed to get admitted no matter how incredibly unlikely it is for you to have a serious condition that warrants admission. Or what about the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of education loans that healthcare profesionals (not just doctors, nurses and technicians as well). Yes there are many things you could tackle and improve but saying "It is complicated, lets not think about it" is literally the WORSE thing to do.
The truth is, we currently play for uninsured people. Either via premium or taxes. Getting universal healthcare will only make it so that there is transparency and every penny can be tracked so that then we can take further actions to further improve the system.

I agree with your description and have seen the waste and overcharging.
But, I never said it is complicated and we should not worry about it. I said she should not be making simplistic statements. I supported Obamacare as a first step. I would support Medicare for all as the best of the worse choices, but I will not pretend I believe they will greatly improve much or reduce costs.
In the US, I believe medical care should be a local issue to truly improve things. I would prefer something like a county ran health program or insurance and the elimination of health insurance companies.

[XogGyux]

I agree with your description and have seen the waste and overcharging.
But, I never said it is complicated and we should not worry about it. I said she should not be making simplistic statements. I supported Obamacare as a first step. I would support Medicare for all as the best of the worse choices, but I will not pretend I believe they will greatly improve much or reduce costs.
In the US, I believe medical care should be a local issue to truly improve things. I would prefer something like a county ran health program or insurance and the elimination of health insurance companies.

BS you supported Obama care and then you support trump which has made his goal to destroy it? How come
IDK what study or what statistic or numbers Ocasio-Cortez is referring. It is very possible that those "savings" are way inflated and real numbers are more realistic to just a few billion to no savings at all and be a budget-neutral budget. Even budget-neutral universal healthcare would be beneficial to our country... In fact I would argue that one that we have to pay a bit extra would be worthy of consideration depending on how much we are talking about. The fact is, many countries have already done this and they have a fraction of our resources. The idea that we cannot do this is RIDICULOUS.

[One Degree]

BS you supported Obama care and then you support trump which has made his goal to destroy it? How come
IDK what study or what statistic or numbers Ocasio-Cortez is referring. It is very possible that those "savings" are way inflated and real numbers are more realistic to just a few billion to no savings at all and be a budget-neutral budget. Even budget-neutral universal healthcare would be beneficial to our country... In fact I would argue that one that we have to pay a bit extra would be worthy of consideration depending on how much we are talking about. The fact is, many countries have already done this and they have a fraction of our resources. The idea that we cannot do this is RIDICULOUS.

Yeah, I know people prefer to slap a label on me and ignore what I actually say. I supported Obama until the 2016 campaign. I did not support Trump until after he was elected and saw the establishment for as corrupt as it really is. I detested the man and only the obvious lies and media control showed me I should support him because the alternative is diabolically evil intended on the exact opposite of what it professes. I had, until then, kept lying to myself that what I was seeing couldn’t really be what they intended. I realized it is. World authoritarianism where those precious individual rights will disappear in an instant. Why do you think we are being asked to give up freedom of speech? Do you really believe that is a path to more freedom? Wanting to silence Nazis truly is an excuse to silence us all. Look at the trend in Europe followed by the US, less freedom in the name of diversity. It’s all a lie.