[SpecialOlympian]

You sound like a broken record.....

Fuck off, bootlicker.

[Tainari88]

Hallelujah, and pass the ammo!

You who live off of a socialist program in Scotland. The horror!!



Te adoro.

[blackjack21]

Free movement of labor so someone can make a killing is part of neoliberalism.

It's also part of communism.

The Capitalist is not a racist in that sense. He knows one human being's labor value for certain professions and jobs is interchangable with another human being's labor value. So did the slaveowner in the South. Why buy Black people? If they are not really capable of doing human being based work?

Well, slavery can hardly be called capitalism. There's no fractional ownership, no capital formation, etc. However, the reason the African slave trade started was because white people simply died in those conditions. They had nothing to treat malaria, for example. So you take an Irishman used to cold and rain and put him onto a plantation in the heat of the South with mosquitos and malaria? He dies. So buying the Irishman costs money. They didn't "own" Irishman, per se. They had indentured servants. So after a time they could go free. But if you pay for an indentured servant to work for you for five years and he dies within six months, you're out a lot of money.

The capitalist knows that too. You got to keep workers alive to make sure they produce, and you keep slaves alive for the same purpose.

So does the Islamist, the socialist, the Feudal lord, and other non-capitalists.

Greater power over a worker's own labor. Eventually you get to socialism that is democratic and it applies to the workplace.

Not if you have global free trade. Think about all the homeless in California. Most of them are unemployed. Yes, there are some homeless people who have real jobs and cannot afford housing. Yet, most are simply without work. Worker's can only bargain if there's work. If there's no work, there's nothing to bargain for. So what happens, is the price of labor goes down--particularly for unskilled labor.

Where the worker is part of the enterprise and controls his own labor investment as well as the means of producing services, goods or commodities.

ESOP capitalism does this very well. It's how the high tech industry boot straps companies and makes techies rich.

You won't be able to stop that train because it is about greater efficiency and control that works for the largest group.

I rather doubt it will be more efficient than capitalism. In one sense, capitalism is about the efficient allocation of resources.

See, the reason you won't be able to stop tech capitalism is that the workers do own a bunch of the means of production.

It just so happens to be limited to benefitting one small elite group. It is allowed to do that because there is a very corrupt system that works for powerful people. That is reality.

Take a look at the other threads on GameStop. That's where hedge funds are trying to rig things for themselves, and it's funny as hell to listen to them howl as they lose billions that it's "market manipulation." They go short, and their choices are to lose some or lose even more as social media investors start buying up stock and pushing up prices and squeezing short sellers. The GameStop thing is absolutely hilarious. They're calling it that "Capital Insurrection."

What I don't understand is how people think that by being self centered and closed minded and uncooperative and violent and racist--that somehow that is going to improve human societies.

Unfortunately for you, I don't think the term "racist" has any currency left. The people buying GameStop are being called racist, because they are buying a stock to bankrupt a greedy capitalist hedge fund. Where's the racism? Not there, but the charge is there. It's frankly lost its meaning.

Guaranteed it will lead to a bloodbath. I don't like bloodbaths, but the result of all that suffering seems to be.....solve what the tension is that caused the resentment or perish. And unfortunately that is what will happen with this pandemic.

I said that back in March of 2020 before the George Floyd riots. As I said, they can pay me to build their new spy ware, but it's pointless because you can't put 75M people in jail or cancel them. Already, they have created a very dangerous situation by trying to lock everyone down and calling certain people "non-essential." As you saw on 1/6, there aren't enough police or soldiers to stop an angry mob, and as it is, the establishment is terrified of the police and soldiers too.

The PRC knows this and is exploiting that enormous weakness. A weakness brought about by greedy people in both parties in the USA government who were willing to give up their government authority for payoffs. You got to accept that the Chinese nationalistic fascism is more forceful because it doesn't compromise. Eventually that will be a very expensive lesson in power hiarchies for the USA to understand.

Yes, and they are not just greedy but incessant liars and gas lighters.

And he doesn't know about government enough to have done a better job at being a caudillo. That is for sure. I don't know of a single Latin American caudillo who would have made the mistakes Trump made. It is due to his lack of experience with political planning.

We agree on that.

It will cost him everything now.

The jury is out on that point. Trump has massive popular support in this country. Do you see a real difference in those who want to manufacture some baseless charge against him and what Putin is ostensibly doing to Navalny? Frankly, I don't see the difference.

In the end power corrupts these people.

Socialism does too. That's why I think it's naïve to think that socialism is going to change human behavior.

[Rancid]

It looks like Trump will likely not get convicted in the impeachment. Further, it looks like republicans are choosing the path of Trumpism.

Given this willingness. I think that they will be successful in overturning future elections (trampling states rights) and effectively destroying the rule of law and usher in an age of cronyism and authoritarianism. Can it happen as early as 2022? 2024?

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog ,

@annatar1914

What is clear at least to me is that under no circumstances would you ever concede the idea of President Trump having a distinct ideology and strategy, for better or for worse, no matter what I said or provided by way of evidence.

@annatar1914

You may accuse me of being close minded all you want. This is not a valid reason to not provide an example of Trump doing long term political strategy.

So you'll have to learn by experience, and that'll obviously take longer than the five years that we've seen of him in political life. When you do find out, well, it will be a different America for sure, either way.

@annatar1914

Well, Bush was a one term Republican POTUS, and he was actually capable of long term political strategy, and we could see that even before he became POTUS, because of his CIA work.

So, I have already seem examples of people in a similar position who have displayed the ability for long term political strategy. Trump’s current behaviour does not strike me as similar.

One beginning clue however is how this stupid second impeachment will turn out. It is a clumsy attempt to deny President Trump the opportunity to run for a second term in 2024, and may well provide him with plenty of opportunity instead to do some damage to his political enemies.

@annatar1914

Yeah, he will probably accuse his opponents of stuff, as his typical knee jerk reaction is to do just that. And I am not sure if it clumsiness on the part of Democrats or spinelessness on the part of Republicans, but Trump will probably get away with subverting democracy again.

But putting insults on social media and having your supporters threaten Republican senators is not long term political strategy.

Another indication of a long term strategy is President Trump's continued control over the GOP, coupled with threats to form a third party as yet another form of leverage. A short term conman doesn't operate in this way for short term benefits. So, he's not a short term conman, despite the propaganda that the propagandists are starting to believe themselves. No, what our enemy is is something different than that.

@annatar1914

Considering the fact that he only started thinking about this after he list the election, he is obviously thinking short term. Thank you for another example that contradicts the claim that he is engaged in long term political strategy.

[Tainari88]

It's also part of communism.


Well, slavery can hardly be called capitalism. There's no fractional ownership, no capital formation, etc. However, the reason the African slave trade started was because white people simply died in those conditions. They had nothing to treat malaria, for example. So you take an Irishman used to cold and rain and put him onto a plantation in the heat of the South with mosquitos and malaria? He dies. So buying the Irishman costs money. They didn't "own" Irishman, per se. They had indentured servants. So after a time they could go free. But if you pay for an indentured servant to work for you for five years and he dies within six months, you're out a lot of money.

Look Blackjack, slavery is a very old concept. It was and continues to be about trying to get people to labor without having to pay them beyond basic necessities and keeping them outside of political and citizen related decision making. Having to have people have the same equality in freedoms and rights is very inconvenient if your ultimate goal is to make sure they work to produce surplus value for people above them in economic and social stations. As for your premise for the latter? Many slaveowners were indebted to banks to pay off loans to buy slaves. So the banks were profiting from the sale of human beings. That is how capitalism is involved as well in all that. It is about power relationships that are based on the control of both capital and property. You know this. Native Americans had almost no immunity to European diseases and as such, they had to import Africans who had a lot more contact with European diseases for a very long time and had more resistance. But? The conditions in the slave ships were not sanitary and a high percentage of them wound up dying of dysentery and infections caught from lack of sanitary conditions. Many also died of suicide and depression throwing themselves overboard rather than face some uncertain slavery in an unknown continent far from their villages and biological families BJ. The entire concept of keeping people enslaved was about a lack of rights and a sense of equality for all humans. It was a successfully profitable endeavor until it no longer was. Capitalism is that way as well.



So does the Islamist, the socialist, the Feudal lord, and other non-capitalists.

You are failing to distinguish what are the characteristics or the motivating factors for each group BJ. You should realize what the behaviors are of each group. Not what they may spout but not practice. I always give more weight to behavior and not theoretical fantasies or non realized rhetoric.


Not if you have global free trade. Think about all the homeless in California. Most of them are unemployed. Yes, there are some homeless people who have real jobs and cannot afford housing. Yet, most are simply without work. Worker's can only bargain if there's work. If there's no work, there's nothing to bargain for. So what happens, is the price of labor goes down--particularly for unskilled labor.

Look BJ, every society has their idea of what a job is supposed to accomplish. In Mexico they reserve certain jobs for certain age groups. They reserve certain jobs for men only or women only. They reserve jobs that in the USA were elminated a long time ago because they are inefficient. In Mexico though, the efficiency might not be the main reason for hanging on to a job and keeping it going despite it being unnecessary. Not all societies think of employment in the same way. In fact it will be fun to go over the systems of labor all over the world. Because it is eye opening. Labor studies world wide demonstrate a real diversity of attitudes and decisions being made regarding to the employment of human labor and the workforce of a particular region of the world. You should study it more. I do because I love urban anthropology and it was a required subject. How different cultures deal with jobs and employment.



ESOP capitalism does this very well. It's how the high tech industry boot straps companies and makes techies rich.
That works well in industries that require highly skilled and educated workforces in large quantities. And that have companies that employ people in their fields of study. Many nations have zero programs to employ their graduates and the graduates are forced to go outside of their country if they wish to pursue a career in high tech or a STEM career. Mexico for example has a lot of German unis that recruit their architects and engineers. Why? Creative richness. Innovation. It is interesting but if you don't have developed infrastructures you can't really retain your native people with enormous talent.


I rather doubt it will be more efficient than capitalism. In one sense, capitalism is about the efficient allocation of resources.

That is highly debatable BJ. Capitalism wastes human potential, it wastes water, oil, arable land, and it is incredibly closed to change and it lacks the ability to adapt to the needs of most of society. It mostly serves a bunch of elitists BJ. If that was not true this pandemic would have been easy for it to reallocate resources to stem the waste. It could not do it because it outsourced most of the Medical PPE to outside places because it is about $$$ and sellout shit behavior. It is part of short term profit bullshit. I don't know how you fail to realize this?

See, the reason you won't be able to stop tech capitalism is that the workers do own a bunch of the means of production.

Do it for ALL WORKERS. ALL OF THEM. That is what Richard Wolff the Marxist guy is working on. Get the workers who are invested in that industry to own the means of production. If the ship goes down it goes down for all of them. Mondragon in Spain did it that way. It is a lot more flexible and is able to absorb the vagaries of the market a lot better than the ones with non owning workers and top heavy managerial class conflicts. That is socialism. A good model of one.


Take a look at the other threads on GameStop. That's where hedge funds are trying to rig things for themselves, and it's funny as hell to listen to them howl as they lose billions that it's "market manipulation." They go short, and their choices are to lose some or lose even more as social media investors start buying up stock and pushing up prices and squeezing short sellers. The GameStop thing is absolutely hilarious. They're calling it that "Capital Insurrection."


Unfortunately for you, I don't think the term "racist" has any currency left. The people buying GameStop are being called racist, because they are buying a stock to bankrupt a greedy capitalist hedge fund. Where's the racism? Not there, but the charge is there. It's frankly lost its meaning.


I said that back in March of 2020 before the George Floyd riots. As I said, they can pay me to build their new spy ware, but it's pointless because you can't put 75M people in jail or cancel them. Already, they have created a very dangerous situation by trying to lock everyone down and calling certain people "non-essential." As you saw on 1/6, there aren't enough police or soldiers to stop an angry mob, and as it is, the establishment is terrified of the police and soldiers too.


Yes, and they are not just greedy but incessant liars and gas lighters.


We agree on that.


The jury is out on that point. Trump has massive popular support in this country. Do you see a real difference in those who want to manufacture some baseless charge against him and what Putin is ostensibly doing to Navalny? Frankly, I don't see the difference.


Socialism does too. That's why I think it's naïve to think that socialism is going to change human behavior.

No it is not naive to think the essence of human nature is a need for freedom and social connection BJ. If you can't see the nature of humanity with this pandemic and you don't see how socialism is both more about freedom in economic terms, and in personal terms when you just said that tech workers who are co owners of what they do for a living and get paid decent wages and get supported....and you had the luck of having access to education and being born in a family in the first world and all that means? And how if you and others don't invest in all people and stop with the artificial pecking orders? Then death and destruction is a sure thing.

Look how pissed the nations are who wanted access to vaccines and are not getting it? Life is unfair but if you don't try to be just with people? Violence, chaos and mayhem and burning their own governments and societies up in the pyre of injustice and marginalized populations all over the world is a SURE thing. And most people are not Donald J. Trump. They don't got the millions from their rich Daddies and people picking up after them all day.

Time to wake up....deal with the lack of equality and work on better systems or perish.

Being selfish is the equivalent of drug addicts making decisions. Hiter's physician was giving him cocaine and heroine injections passing it off as vitamin injections. He was irrational in the battle of the Bulge and lost his rationality. Like all dictatorial men with delusions of ego grandeur. It doesn't end well BJ. But nowadays it is not about resupplies and reinforcement access it is about total wipeout of life on Earth. It is learning to care in a political sense and economic sense or everyone goes down together.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914



@annatar1914

You may accuse me of being close minded all you want. This is not a valid reason to not provide an example of Trump doing long term political strategy.



@annatar1914

Well, Bush was a one term Republican POTUS, and he was actually capable of long term political strategy, and we could see that even before he became POTUS, because of his CIA work.

So, I have already seem examples of people in a similar position who have displayed the ability for long term political strategy. Trump’s current behaviour does not strike me as similar.



@annatar1914

Yeah, he will probably accuse his opponents of stuff, as his typical knee jerk reaction is to do just that. And I am not sure if it clumsiness on the part of Democrats or spinelessness on the part of Republicans, but Trump will probably get away with subverting democracy again.

But putting insults on social media and having your supporters threaten Republican senators is not long term political strategy.



@annatar1914

Considering the fact that he only started thinking about this after he list the election, he is obviously thinking short term. Thank you for another example that contradicts the claim that he is engaged in long term political strategy.

@Pants-of-dog ;

He said months before the election, even years before, that he was going to lose in 2020, that they would have it rigged against him. That is indication of long term thinking. But of course you will deny and obfuscate the issue.

So no matter, Liberals are walking into another trap next month, in their efforts to permanently muzzle Trump constitution or no constitution,and we shall see what we shall see. Well, maybe not Liberals, because self-reflection in light of events as they happen or afterwards isn't something they're collectively good at.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog ;

@annatar1914

He said months before the election, even years before, that he was going to lose in 2020, that they would have it rigged against him. That is indication of long term thinking.

No. He makes this claim every election. And each time, it changes nothing for him.

But of course you will deny and obfuscate the issue.

Your disrespectful views about me are irrelevant.

So no matter, Liberals are walking into another trap next month, in their efforts to permanently muzzle Trump constitution or no constitution,and we shall see what we shall see. Well, maybe not Liberals, because self-reflection in light of events as they happen or afterwards isn't something they're collectively good at.

This accusation pointed at liberals is irrelevant.

Trump does not seem capable of long term political strategy.

[annatar1914]

It looks like Trump will likely not get convicted in the impeachment. Further, it looks like republicans are choosing the path of Trumpism.

Given this willingness. I think that they will be successful in overturning future elections (trampling states rights) and effectively destroying the rule of law and usher in an age of cronyism and authoritarianism. Can it happen as early as 2022? 2024?

@Rancid ;

The age of 'cronyism and authoritarianism' has been around since 1933 when President Roosevelt declared a state of national emergency that has never been revoked. It doubled down in 1947 when the Cold War began, and began to be obvious when President Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963. Ever since then it has just got worse.

What is happening now is that an Oligarch (with an elite faction behind him) who had the nerve to rally people around the slogans of nationalism and economic populism is being fought by the rest of the American establishment Oligarchs. They thought he's give up if he lost the Presidential election, and they as usual were wrong. Expect other Oligarchs to increasingly do more of the same-it's what happened in the late period of the Roman Republic; Yang with his UBI, Bloomberg running trying to buy the DNC, etc...They'll try to buy the voters, raise private armies and rent-a-mobs to attack their opponents and defend themselves, make alliances together to openly rule as a Junta, until one has total power and governs as a Monarch in all but name when the military gets completely behind them.

And did life get bad for the average person? Not really, in fact it got better with more political stability.

[Rancid]

The age of 'cronyism and authoritarianism' has been around since 1933

IT has existed since our ancestors came down from the trees.

Anyway, yes, it has existed, I'd say it will get worse.

[annatar1914]

IT has existed since our ancestors came down from the trees.

Anyway, yes, it has existed, I'd say it will get worse.

@Rancid

Perhaps, 'better' or 'worse' being a matter of perspective of course.

[Potemkin]

You who live off of a socialist program in Scotland. The horror!!



Te adoro.

Te adoro, querida. Te extraño. Te extraño. ❤

[Rugoz]

I picked it because it is one of the few cases actually decided on the merits rather than dismissed on arguably (sometimes obviously) correct procedural grounds, and the other major one decided on the merits I know of--the Pennsylvania court's ruling that the state's law doesn't require signature verification for absentee ballots--was clearly, risibly, grasping at whatever straws they could find to invent a justification for their desired ruling.

In your opinion.

But regardless, it looks like you completely misunderstood the ruling of the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

It's up to the voters to decide whether they are "indefinitely confined":
https://wislawjournal.com/2020/12/14/wi ... -confined/

Then, the Wisconsin Supreme Court tossed out Trump's lawsuit because "the challenge to voters who were indefinitely confined was without merit" (among other reasons):
https://wislawjournal.com/2020/12/14/wi ... n-lawsuit/

Needless to say this was about a technicality, electoral fraud wasn't even on the table.

[Tainari88]

@blackjack21 :

Take a look at the other threads on GameStop. That's where hedge funds are trying to rig things for themselves, and it's funny as hell to listen to them howl as they lose billions that it's "market manipulation." They go short, and their choices are to lose some or lose even more as social media investors start buying up stock and pushing up prices and squeezing short sellers. The GameStop thing is absolutely hilarious. They're calling it that "Capital Insurrection."

I won't be crying over capitalist insurrection tactics.

Unfortunately for you, I don't think the term "racist" has any currency left. The people buying GameStop are being called racist, because they are buying a stock to bankrupt a greedy capitalist hedge fund. Where's the racism? Not there, but the charge is there. It's frankly lost its meaning.

Frankly BJ, I call it like it is. You have a tremendous amount of subconscious racism and class conscious bullshit. I am not a white liberal. I never was. They are racist as hell as well but they are smarter than the Right wing dummies in the Republican party who fail to realize that displaying the confederate flag and being part of the KKK or some white supremacist group is not going to help the Republicans hold on to slim margins over time. The USA as I said before are only getting new American citizen applications primarily from four nations--China, India, Cuba and Mexico. Period. So the faces of the new American post democracy and more fascist to the Right Trump movement is gong to have to accept that is where the future is. With the sons and daughters of Chinese immigrants, Indian immigrants, Cuban immigrants and Mexican immigrants. And if they want to survive as a political party having dumb ass racists say they love the Republican party is not going to help them create a new nationalist stupid movement. That is for sure. Whether you realize being a racist extremist who loves fascism and wants to raid homes and put Mexican kids in cages is really bad for your brand of Right wing shitty tendencies. But that is what it is. I don't care how you say Trump is not racist BJ. He is a racist pig that not only is a bad unskilled caudillo but he has duped the very weak that somehow he is representing the working class. He is not. And never will. That he has the neocons and neolibs on the defensive? His only accomplishment. The hypocritical types who are shocked at the pain of having a coup done against them or attempted coup. Welcome to Latin America under American government machinations. KARMA!
I said that back in March of 2020 before the George Floyd riots. As I said, they can pay me to build their new spy ware, but it's pointless because you can't put 75M people in jail or cancel them. Already, they have created a very dangerous situation by trying to lock everyone down and calling certain people "non-essential." As you saw on 1/6, there aren't enough police or soldiers to stop an angry mob, and as it is, the establishment is terrified of the police and soldiers too.


Yes, and they are not just greedy but incessant liars and gas lighters.


We agree on that.


The jury is out on that point. Trump has massive popular support in this country. Do you see a real difference in those who want to manufacture some baseless charge against him and what Putin is ostensibly doing to Navalny? Frankly, I don't see the difference.


Socialism does too. That's why I think it's naïve to think that socialism is going to change human behavior.

[blackjack21]

Frankly BJ, I call it like it is.

How it is in your head...

You have a tremendous amount of subconscious racism and class conscious bullshit.

There's nothing subconscious about anything I'm saying. You just aren't willing to entertain any ideas that are different from your own interpretation or your own life experience.

They are racist as hell as well but they are smarter than the Right wing dummies in the Republican party who fail to realize that displaying the confederate flag and being part of the KKK or some white supremacist group is not going to help the Republicans hold on to slim margins over time.

The Democrats are smart enough to infiltrate those groups and fly the confederate flag, which is a symbol of the Democratic party and their rebellion against the Union. Dumb people can be easily identified as saying such things as "The Democrats used to be racist, but all the racists left the Democrats and became Republicans." That's the telltale sign of a complete idiot.

The USA as I said before are only getting new American citizen applications primarily from four nations--China, India, Cuba and Mexico. Period. So the faces of the new American post democracy and more fascist to the Right Trump movement is gong to have to accept that is where the future is.

I work with a US citizen from Florida, now living in Texas, whose parents came from Cuba. Guess what his political views are? I have a number of Indian friends. About 2/3 are Republicans. I can't say I have any Chinese friends. I guess that makes me a racist against Chinese people? I have a couple of Mexican friends. Both of them are Democrats.

And if they want to survive as a political party having dumb ass racists say they love the Republican party is not going to help them create a new nationalist stupid movement.

Trump held rallies in the US with huge numbers of Indian Americans. He also did so in India with Modi. Keep in mind, I work in the software industry. I recently hired an Indian woman to my team. Indian women tend to be very well educated, yet traditional.

Whether you realize being a racist extremist who loves fascism and wants to raid homes and put Mexican kids in cages is really bad for your brand of Right wing shitty tendencies.

I don't want to put them into cages. I want them to be deported back to their country of origin. If they want to emigrate to the United States, they need to do so lawfully.

I don't care how you say Trump is not racist BJ. He is a racist pig that not only is a bad unskilled caudillo but he has duped the very weak that somehow he is representing the working class. He is not. And never will. That he has the neocons and neolibs on the defensive? His only accomplishment. The hypocritical types who are shocked at the pain of having a coup done against them or attempted coup. Welcome to Latin America under American government machinations. KARMA!

Look, you think that the United States should have open borders. Not everyone agrees with that. That doesn't make everyone racist, either. For someone who isn't a white liberal, you sure do subscribe to their racial rhetoric. Donald Trump drove down the unemployment rate of working class people, and drove their wages higher with policies that involved imposing tariffs on Chinese trade, renegotiating NAFTA, deporting illegal aliens (but nothing more than Obama or Bush did), and lowering the corporate tax rate so that they wouldn't bank their money offshore among other things.

[Rancid]

I think we shold let the KKK legislate laws in the US.

[Julian658]

I think we shold let the KKK legislate laws in the US.

Up until the mid 60s the Democratic KKK party ran the show.

[Dimetrodon]

Up until the mid 60s the Democratic KKK party ran the show.

Until the political realignment after the Civil Rights Act, and the Southern Strategy by the GOP to get the southern racist vote.

[Pants-of-dog]

David Duke, a bigwig in the KKK, served as a Republican member of the Louisiana Congress for several years.

[Rancid]

Up until the mid 60s the Democratic KKK party ran the show.

In 2021 is the Democratic party run by the KKK?