[maz]

You cherrypicked one graph where the majority make a clear distinction.

There is another one but I don't have time to debunk your post graph by graph. In the future, just try to be more careful when calling me incorrect.

Please don't BS me, I read them carefully before they were posted.

Oh and Verv, your link is from..

Federation for American Immigration Reform
Policy institute

LMAO your sources are imgur, you can't even be bothered post the actual articles of your sources. Geez you might even be a worse poster when it comes to this kind of thing than Pants of Dog LOL

I don't even understand the point of this thread. Are you trying to make a pro-illegal immigration argument here or what?

I will be checking verv's source over the next week.

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers

Report by Matt O'Brien and Spencer Raley | September 27, 2017 | View the Full Report (PDF)
Key Highlights

In 2017, the total cost of illegal immigration for the United States – at the federal, state, and local levels – was approximately $116 billion.

FAIR arrived at this number by subtracting the tax revenue paid by illegal aliens – about $19 billion – from the total economic impact of illegal migration, $134.9 billion.

In 2013, the estimated total cost of illegal migration was approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.

Evidence shows that the tax payments made by illegal aliens fail to cover the costs of the many services they consume.

A large percentage of illegal aliens who work in the underground economy frequently avoid paying any income tax at all.
Many illegal aliens actually receive a net cash profit through refundable tax credit programs.

Introduction

A continually growing population of illegal aliens, along with the federal government’s ineffective efforts to secure our borders, present significant national security and public safety threats to the United States. They also have a severely negative impact on the nation’s taxpayers at the local, state, and national levels. Illegal immigration costs Americans billions of dollars each year. Illegal aliens are net consumers of taxpayer-funded services and the limited taxes paid by some segments of the illegal alien population are, in no way, significant enough to offset the growing financial burdens imposed on U.S. taxpayers by massive numbers of uninvited guests. This study examines the fiscal impact of illegal aliens as reflected in both federal and state budgets.
The Number of Illegal Immigrants in the US

Estimating the fiscal burden of illegal immigration on the U.S. taxpayer depends on the size and characteristics of the illegal alien population. FAIR defines “illegal alien” as anyone who entered the United States without authorization and anyone who unlawfully remains once his/her authorization has expired. Unfortunately, the U.S. government has no central database containing information on the citizenship status of everyone lawfully present in the United States. The overall problem of estimating the illegal alien population is further complicated by the fact that the majority of available sources on immigration status rely on self-reported data. Given that illegal aliens have a motive to lie about their immigration status, in order to avoid discovery, the accuracy of these statistics is dubious, at best. All of the foregoing issues make it very difficult to assess the current illegal alien population of the United States.

However, FAIR now estimates that there are approximately 12.5 million illegal alien residents. This number uses FAIR’s previous estimates but adjusts for suspected changes in levels of unlawful migration, based on information available from the Department of Homeland Security, data available from other federal and state government agencies, and other research studies completed by reliable think tanks, universities, and other research organizations.
The Cost of Illegal Immigration to the United States

At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels.

[Verv]

You haven't actually provided any objective information contradicting it, though, because nothing that you have posted is about illegal immigration specifically.

You can't possibly skirt the entire topic and then think you are scoring the game winning point by saying my source is biased. I even hinted at this idea in my initial post.

You have to prove your point -- but you do not provided any resources which give insights into specifically illegal immigration. My guess is that this is the case not just because of you, but because the leftist think tanks and media outlets have zero interest in accurately gathering information that will just be a sore thumb to their whole ideology.

[Presvias]

No. Your messages are just pure filibustery bluster.

All the graphs clearly list their sources underneath..all of them, and most of them clearly distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Sources include US govt itself and the Cato institute.

Simply playing games won't cut it. You've got hard evidence right in front of you (no they are not 'leftist thinktanks', rubbish) and you're ignoring it.

There really is no point in saying anything further. (shrug) If you think I made the graphs & sources up, just google the titles yourselves.

Pretty disappointing replies tbh. You could do a lot better..

[maz]

You've got hard evidence right in front of you (no they are not 'leftist thinktanks', rubbish) and you're ignoring it.

Evidence proving what?

[Presvias]

Really? ^

You're just blustering-up the debate with irrelevance.

FWIW, I do not support the Dems or their positions.

The data is merely presented to you..YOU form your own opinions. I am not telling you 'what to think', what else would you have me do? IMHO Dr Lee's post was the most on-point.

(shrugs)

You really need to stop conflating everyone's opinion with narrow tribalistic loyalties.

[maz]

Really? ^

You're just blustering-up the debate with irrelevance.

FWIW, I do not support the Dems or their positions.

The data is merely presented to you..YOU form your own opinions. I am not telling you 'what to think', what else would you have me do? IMHO Dr Lee's post was the most on-point.

(shrugs)

You really need to stop conflating everyone's opinion with narrow tribalistic loyalties.

I asked you what the point of this thread was, because you don't seem to even have a point. Why won't you at least answer that question so we can even know what we are supposed to debate?

You just posed a bunch of random graphs and said that legal and illegal immigration was the exact opposite of what you think is true. What does that even mean?

I never said legal or illegal immigrants commit more crime or whatever, and I do not know anyone to hold that belief. Your entire post is like a strawman.

[Presvias]

...Really..?

The anti-immigration lobby is strong and comes out with a lot of lies. This is purely about telling the truth, setting the record straight.

What's my argument? I already told you - read DrLee's post; he eloquently summed my personal thoughts..

What's so 'strawman'-y about all of that exactly? Nothing.

[maz]

So you have to defer to DrLee instead of defending your own incoherent argument?

By the way, DrLee has at least made one coherent argument; that corporations, some of which are backers if the GOP, are enablers of illegal immigration and they should be held accountable for enabling this problem.

[Presvias]

Idk what you're on about.

It's very simple, the OP is data presented for you to form your own opinion; it's there to clear up lies & myths propogated by alt-right BSers.

Nothing you post will change that fact. There is no incoherence in my argument, no matter how much you wish it were so.

Dr's argument matches my own views and is not 'the premise' of the thread. Comprende?

Now if you're going to keep glibly banging on about how you can't understand what OP means, I'll just quit responding, there's no point is there?

[Atlantis]

I'd add that trying to help improve nations surrounding America

The US needs to learn from the EU's economic convergence, which spreads prosperity from the rich industrial countries to the poorer countries.

Mass migration occurs when there is a big difference in the level of prosperity on the two sides of the border. If that difference is reduced, most people decide to stay at home instead of emigrating. If the level of prosperity and the social and political conditions are not too different, there isn't any need for borders and we can have free movement of people and goods to the great benefit of all.

[Presvias]

The US needs to learn from the EU's economic convergence, which spreads prosperity from the rich industrial countries to the poorer countries.

Mass migration occurs when there is a big difference in the level of prosperity on the two sides of the border. If that difference is reduced, most people decide to stay at home instead of emigrating. If the level of prosperity and the social and political conditions are not too different, there isn't any need for borders and we can have free movement of people and goods to the great benefit of all.

Precisely.

It would be excellent if large & necessary constraints were put on big US biz, and the monopolising ways they use were curbed.

Then you could have a successful NAU Heck, if it was going well..you could add prosperous SA countries and stuff like that..

(However, aping populist policies will detract from our 'eeevil one world govt' ambitions my dear Atlantis )

[BigSteve]

The US needs to learn from the EU's economic convergence, which spreads prosperity from the rich industrial countries to the poorer countries.

Mass migration occurs when there is a big difference in the level of prosperity on the two sides of the border. If that difference is reduced, most people decide to stay at home instead of emigrating. If the level of prosperity and the social and political conditions are not too different, there isn't any need for borders and we can have free movement of people and goods to the great benefit of all.

In 2017 the United States gave just south of $50 billion dollars to Mexico.

If they can't figure out how to properly use such an enormous sum of cash, then fuck the whole idea of giving them any more...

[Presvias]

In 2017 the United States gave just south of $50 billion dollars to Mexico.

If they can't figure out how to properly use such an enormous sum of cash, then fuck the whole idea of giving them any more...

Mexico has a pretty good prez; a current account surplus, emigration dropped dramatically on the SW border, the gangs are being dealt with effectively..

Looks like it's going as well as one can expect. More money might actually make things even better.

IIRC Canada is doing pretty well at the moment too (not strictly related to the first point).

Maybe having an NAU to mirror the EU isn't such a bad idea at all.

[BigSteve]

Mexico has a pretty good prez; a current account surplus, emigration dropped dramatically on the SW border, the gangs are being dealt with effectively..

Looks like it's going as well as one can expect. More money might actually make things even better.

IIRC Canada is doing pretty well at the moment too (not strictly related to the first point).

Maybe having an NAU to mirror the EU isn't such a bad idea at all.

Oh, I'm sure more money would make things better. That's a no brainer. But we're already giving them a shit ton of money. Let them help us stop with non-stop invasion of illegal immigrants crossing our mutual border and then we'll talk.

Until then, we should actually start talking about reducing what we give them...

[Presvias]

Things will just get worse again if you do that.

The border apprehension problem really isn't so bad - and as I pointed out earlier, all types of illegal immigration into the US has dropped dramatically.

I don't think there needs to be any tightening of policy. There's surely nothing to suggest that it's necessary.

(All IMHO of course).

[BigSteve]

Things will just get worse again if you do that.

Then that's something the Mexican government should think about...

The border apprehension problem really isn't so bad - and as I pointed out earlier, all types of illegal immigration into the US has dropped dramatically.

Mexico isn't doing enough and we're doing too much. They need to play a larger role. The decreases we've seen in illegal aliens coming across the border have been due to what we're doing far more than anything Mexico is doing...

[Presvias]

^ What evidence are you basing those assertions on?

It'd be nice to be proven wrong on this, I'll gladly concede the point if you prove me wrong.

[BigSteve]

^ What evidence are you basing those assertions on?

It'd be nice to be proven wrong on this, I'll gladly concede the point if you prove me wrong.

I base my assertions on the fact that illegal aliens are still coming up from South America, through Mexico and across our border. Mexico needs to try to stop them at their southern border as much as we try to stop them at ours...

[Finfinder]

I have posted many times on this before asking this simple question:

If the Trump administration goal is to stop illegal immigration and its effects on the job market in the US, why don't they go after the real cause? That is the employers who are illegally employing these folks.

There is practically no workplace enforcement which exacerbates the problem in two ways. First it leaves the very real offer of jobs to people who enter illegally of course. But it also leaves the illegals open to exploitation by the threat of exposure.

If we had robust ID requirements and there was a very real threat of loosing ones license to operate a business (EIN) for not properly documenting a person's eligibility for employment, there would be little illegal immigration.

What there would soon be is a hue and cry for increased legal immigration as the US job market would be devastated. On the up-side, wages would clime dramatically as business had to pay for legal workers who will demand real money for menial jobs. (As they should.)

The argument that illegals are taking jobs from citizens fails because there is virtually no unemployment now. The claim that they depress wages is clearly true. Pick your poison.

They are replacing the blue collar voter and the black voter which the Democrats are hemorrhaging badly.

[Presvias]

What about this?

https://www.apnews.com/aebd2de0c1a54a029475d3db364d9f3f

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1567646550

The WSJ is generally quite reputable where stuff like this is concerned.

It looks like the system works as intended and I see no reason why you'd want to overplay your hand with Mexico. But just my opinion. Of course, finder's fish fingers will never see this..