On Illegal + Legal Immigration: The Exact Opposite of What You think is True, is True - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15042339
Pants-of-dog wrote:@BigSteve does not debate.

Nor does he get wound up. He arrives already angry.

But if he wishes to try to make an argument, I am all ears.


You don't know how to debate or accept a differing argument. You dismiss as anything and everything you disagree with.

And the reason I get angry is because some rambling Canuck thinks he's somehow qualified to intelligently discuss anything regarding American politics...
#15042341
Presvias wrote:They shouldn't have been subjected to such by virtue of their being undoc'd migrants.

As I'm sure you agree..


Did you not see where I said I don't condone the violence?

What part of that is unclear?

What cannot be intelligently debated is the FACT that, if they weren't here illegally, they wouldn't have been attacked by teenagers with BB guns in Oklahoma...
#15042358
Let me know if you guys have an actual argument based on evidence and/or logic.

Apparently, Trump’s crackdown is resulting in less oil production.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... llers.html


    U.S. crude oil production growth may have slowed down this year, but the largest oil-producing counties in the Permian basin continue to feel a shortage of labor.

    The predicament for small oil services business owners in New Mexico is aggravated by the surge in worksite audits, investigations, and arrests as part of U.S. President Donald Trump’s tougher stance on illegal immigration.

    A growing number of owners of oil-related businesses in the second-biggest oil-producing county in the United States, Lea County in New Mexico, now avoid hiring undocumented immigrants for oil field work, fearing the clampdown on immigration will affect their business, Reuters reporter Andrew Hay writes.

    There are still oil field services business owners who continue to hire an illegal labor force.

    Yet, those who want to play by the rules find themselves between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, President Trump’s pro-oil policies clash with impact from the crackdown on immigration, which makes business owners idle drilling rigs and equipment not because they have drilled out all the shale wells in Lea County, but because they can’t find legal immigrant workers to do some of the dangerous difficult jobs on the oil field that some Americans shun.
    ...

Edit:

Please note that I correctly predicted that @BigSteve would not make an argument, and would be angry.
#15042387
Pants-of-dog wrote:Let me know if you guys have an actual argument based on evidence and/or logic.


What argument is there to have? If the illegal aliens weren't here, they would not have been attacked in Oklahoma. That can't even be argued...

Apparently, Trump’s crackdown is resulting in less oil production.

The predicament for small oil services business owners in New Mexico is aggravated by the surge in worksite audits, investigations, and arrests as part of U.S. President Donald Trump’s tougher stance on illegal immigration.


GOOD!!

Isn't this what whiny liberals always say has to happen? To go after the employers? Now that we see it happening, liberals are STILL whining. Your hypocrisy shines with the light of a thousand suns...
#15042532
BigSteve wrote:What argument is there to have? If the illegal aliens weren't here, they would not have been attacked in Oklahoma. That can't even be argued...


This is only relevant in some magical fantasy world where illegal immigration is not a thing.

And if we are simply going to ignore reality and history, one could equally point out that if the USA did not have violent racists, this would not have happened.

GOOD!!

Isn't this what whiny liberals always say has to happen? To go after the employers? Now that we see it happening, liberals are STILL whining. Your hypocrisy shines with the light of a thousand suns...


If your only argument is to pretend I am emotional as you about it, then there is no debate.

Trump is having a negative impact on one of the very industries he promised to support, and is doing so simply because he wants to appeal to his xenophobic base.
#15042556
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is only relevant in some magical fantasy world where illegal immigration is not a thing.

And if we are simply going to ignore reality and history, one could equally point out that if the USA did not have violent racists, this would not have happened.


I'll accept your acknowledgement that you're not able to refute my point...

Trump is having a negative impact on one of the very industries he promised to support, and is doing so simply because he wants to appeal to his xenophobic base.


Why is it that libs seem to think that illegal immigration has only been a thing for conservatives since Trump took office. Trump was still bangin' his first wife when I developed my disdain for illegal aliens...
#15042568
BigSteve wrote:I'll accept your acknowledgement that you're not able to refute my point...



..except for the fact that it is entirely unrealistic and would require the US to have a different history.

Why is it that libs seem to think that illegal immigration has only been a thing for conservatives since Trump took office. Trump was still bangin' his first wife when I developed my disdain for illegal aliens...


This has nothing to do with the fact I mentioned.

Moving on:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/a ... tion-myths

    WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump has long railed against immigration as a scourge on the economy and national security. He’s committed his administration to starting construction on a wall along the Mexican border to stop illegal immigration and asylum seekers, yet he reversed his past policy efforts on restricting legal immigration in this year’s State of the Union address.

    Trump managed to accuse immigrants in the country illegally of stealing jobs from American workers, while declaring that the country needs more immigrants because of its economic boom. This argument rested on a series of false stereotypes.

    “I want people to come into our country in the largest numbers ever, but they have to come in legally,” he declared, only to say later, “Working-class Americans are left to pay the price for mass illegal immigration: reduced jobs, lower wages, overburdened schools, hospitals that are so crowded you can’t get in, increased crime, and a depleted social safety net.”

    That’s a slight variation on his drumbeat going back to 2015, when he declared: “They’re taking our jobs, they’re taking our manufacturing jobs, they’re taking our money, they’re killing us.”

    The fact is that 75 percent of immigrants arrived legally, according to the Pew Research Center. In general, the entire immigrant population is increasingly better educated than native-born Americans.

    They’re more likely to have jobs. They’re less likely to commit violent crimes. They help fuel economic growth. And as a group over time, they’re no more a drain on taxpayers than native-born citizens.

    Moreover, for all the attention to the southern border, in recent years immigrants to the U.S. have been more likely to come from Asia than from Mexico.

    Three Harvard University economists released a paper in June that looked at immigration in multiple countries and concluded that native-born Americans as a whole wildly overestimate the prevalence of immigrants. These Americans estimated, on average, that legal immigrants made up 36 percent of the U.S. population, more than triple their actual share. They thought that immigrants were less likely to work and more dependent on government aid than immigrants actually are — and these stereotypes made them less supportive of social programs that might aid immigrants.

    “We were surprised by how much of a misperception there was about the level of education, income and contribution to society that immigrants give,” said Alberto Alesini, a Harvard economist who co-wrote the paper.

    Here are some fundamental myths about U.S. immigration and the economy:

    MYTH: VAST NUMBERS OF IMMIGRANTS ARE POURING ACROSS U.S. BORDERS

    REALITY: Not really.

    The net flow of all migration into the United States in recent years — around 0.3 percent of the total population — is roughly at a long-standing historical average, according to an analysis of government data by Lyman Stone, an economist who studies demographic issues.

    “It isn’t rock-bottom, but it isn’t that high either,” Stone said.

    READ MORE: Trump says there’s a ‘crisis’ at the border. Here’s what the data says

    Economists say that restricting immigration would probably weaken economic growth. Given today’s lower birth rates in the United States, immigrants are increasingly needed to sustain a level of population growth for the U.S. economy to keep expanding.

    Immigrants as a whole do make up a greater percentage of the total U.S. population than they did back in 1970, having grown from less than 5 percent of the population to more than 13 percent now.

    But there’s a largely overlooked reason for that: Native-born Americans are having fewer children. The falling birth rate means that immigrants now make up a greater share of the population. In 2030, it’s projected that immigrants will become the primary driver for U.S. population growth, overtaking U.S. births.

    MYTH: IMMIGRANTS ARE TAKING AWAY JOBS

    REALITY: Many people have firsthand stories of losing a construction bid or an office job to a foreign worker. This happens in an economy as large and diverse as the United States’, where numerous people also lose jobs to native-born Americans.

    But employment data suggest that the influx of immigrants helps increase overall hiring for the U.S. economy rather than erode job growth. The trend is clear in the government’s monthly jobs report. The data doesn’t distinguish between immigrants who are in the U.S. legally and illegally.

    Nearly 64 percent of immigrants hold jobs, compared with roughly 60 percent of workers born in the United States, according to the Labor Department. Last year, immigrants accounted for roughly 40 percent of the 2.4 million jobs added.

    Because a steady growth in the workforce helps the economy expand, economists say fewer immigrants would equal slower growth and fewer jobs. Falling birth rates and the retirement of the vast generation of baby boomers mean fewer people will flow into the workforce in the coming years — a drag on economic growth, which will, in turn, probably limit hiring.

    Many economists have noted that adding immigrants would help maintain the flow of workers into the economy and support growth.

    MYTH: IMMIGRANTS ARE UNEDUCATED

    REALITY: The president has pledged to create an immigration system based on “merit,” thereby implying that the United States is a destination mainly of unskilled and uneducated workers.

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best,” Trump said at his 2015 campaign kickoff.

    But today’s immigrants are more likely to be better educated than Americans. And the country has increasingly become a magnet for foreigners with doctorates and master’s degrees. Sixteen percent of all immigrants who arrived since 2000 hold an advanced degree, compared with 13 percent of the native-born population, according to the Census Bureau.

    As of 2017, immigrants who have become citizens are almost twice as likely to hold a doctorate than are native-born U.S. citizens. Foreign-born citizens were more likely to have a doctorate at least as far back as 2000.

    And Census records also show that the children of immigrants are more likely to graduate from college than are those of native-born parentage.

    This doesn’t mean, of course, that all immigrants are better educated. Such are the disparities within the immigrant population that immigrants as a whole are less likely than native-born Americans to have completed high school. But the trend shows that the United States is increasingly a home for foreigners with graduate degrees and higher earnings.

    MYTH: IMMIGRANTS ARE TO BLAME FOR TODAY’S SLUGGISH WAGE GROWTH

    REALITY: The weight of the research suggests that immigrants have not suppressed wages.

    David Card, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley, first studied the issue in 1990 by reviewing the arrival of Cuban migrants in Miami during the 1980 “Mariel boat lift.” This historical rush of immigrants created a natural experiment to measure what then happened to incomes in the local area. He concluded: “The influx appears to have had virtually no effect on the wages or unemployment rates of less-skilled workers.”

    Giovanni Peri, an economist at the University of California at Davis, studied immigration into California between 1960 and 2005. He wrote in a 2010 paper that it had “essentially” no effect on wages or employment of native-born workers.

    But many people seeking to reduce immigration rely on research from George Borjas, a Harvard economist. His research found that the arrival of Cubans in the Mariel boat lift caused wages to fall for native-born high school dropouts in Miami. Other economists have questioned his methodology.

    In addition, Borjas’ findings would apply to a small fraction of U.S. jobholders today, only about 6.2 percent of whom lack a high school degree.

    Other explanations for sluggish wage growth go beyond immigration. They include the decline in unionization, an intensified push to maximize corporate profits, growing health insurance costs that supplant wages and the rise of a lower-wage global labor force that in an intertwined worldwide economy can hinder pay growth for Americans.

    MYTH: IMMIGRANTS ARE A DRAIN ON TAXPAYERS

    REALITY: The National Academy of Sciences explored the costs to taxpayers in 2016. It’s a tricky issue. The federal government runs a budget deficit, which means it spends more than it collects in taxes. This means that, on average, most Americans are a net drain on taxpayers.

    All told, the costs imposed by immigrants are about the same as they are for native-born citizens.

    “An immigrant and a native-born person with similar characteristics will likely have the same fiscal impact,” the report said.

    But the report also examined spending by states and localities, which generally must maintain balanced budgets. Because state and local governments supply most of the money for public schools, immigrants often receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes.

    That said, there are longer-term benefits from educating children, who grow into adults who get jobs, buy cars, buy houses and pay taxes and thereby contribute to economic growth. The National Academy found that the net cost from 2011 to 2013 for state and local budgets combined averaged $1,600 a year for a first-generation immigrant. But that figure became a net positive of $1,700 for the second generation and $1,300 for the third.

    Immigrant households with children are generally more likely to use welfare programs like food assistance and Medicaid than native-born households, largely because the immigrant families have lower average incomes and larger families, according to the National Academy report.

    MYTH: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LEADS TO VIOLENT CRIME

    REALITY: Trump frequently highlights violence by the “savage” MS-13 gang, saying in his speech Tuesday that it operates in at least 20 states and “they almost all come through our southern border.”

    He invokes that gang, whose members come predominantly from El Salvador or are U.S. citizens descended from there, to portray immigrants as criminals. Widespread crime makes it harder, of course, to run a business, spend money and engage in the daily transactions that keep an economy humming.

    But there is scant evidence that immigrants are perpetuating a crime wave. In a paper published last year, sociologists Michael Light and Ty Miller reviewed crime in every state and the District of Columbia from 1990 to 2014. They found that a rising number of immigrants in the country illegally corresponded with a drop, not a rise, in reported crime.

    The authors acknowledged that it’s possible that people who came illegally are less likely to report a crime. But the authors also note that such immigrants overwhelmingly arrived to work, a trend that helps to reduce crime levels. Past research cited in their paper found that 93 percent of the men in the country illegally either have a job or are looking for one.

    “At a minimum, the results of our study call into question claims that undocumented immigration increases violent crime,” their paper concluded. “If anything, the data suggest the opposite.”
#15042573
Pants-of-dog wrote:..except for the fact that it is entirely unrealistic and would require the US to have a different history.


No, it would've required the illegals who were attacked in Oklahoma to not be in Oklahoma.

The rest of your post is largely meaningless...
#15042576
...except they were in Oklahoma.

And they were there because of the economic opportunities available there. And the vast difference in economic opportunities and lack of violence between Oklahoma and Central America is due to history.

And since we cannot change history, the point made by @BigSteve is only applicable in some magical world where history happened differently.
#15042588
Pants-of-dog wrote:...except they were in Oklahoma.


And, as a result, they were easy targets for some shitheads with BB guns.

If they weren't here, they wouldn't have been...

And they were there because of the economic opportunities available there.


No, they were here because they broke our laws...
#15042606
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, I am sure that people come only because they want to break the laws. :roll:


I've not said that, so I don't know what you're addressing.

Regardless of why they come here, they break the law to do it.

That cannot be debated...
#15042613
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, your simple truisms are obvious and not worth discussing.

What is interesting is the causes of migration, and how those were created by historical acts.


Migration and illegal immigration are two very different things. You're not going to be able to discuss this topic intelligently if you don't understand that...
#15042614
Rancid wrote:Although I think open borders is impractical. I think the blame immigrants mantra from conservatives leaders is a nice tool they use to distract their voter base from the fact that the wealthy are robbing all of us.

Right on. The billionaires have all sorts of distractions they use to entertain the dumb masses and divert their attention from the fact that the dumb masses are being farmed like a flock of sheep. One of my favorites is making a lot of noise over a few confused souls who aren't sure if they are males or females. Really ….. who gives a shit. I find lobbyists doling out millions in "campaign contributions" to purchase congress men, senators and, undoubtedly, the POTUS way more concerning.
#15042676
jimjam wrote:Right on. The billionaires have all sorts of distractions they use to entertain the dumb masses and divert their attention from the fact that the dumb masses are being farmed like a flock of sheep. One of my favorites is making a lot of noise over a few confused souls who aren't sure if they are males or females. Really ….. who gives a shit. I find lobbyists doling out millions in "campaign contributions" to purchase congress men, senators and, undoubtedly, the POTUS way more concerning.


Absolutely right.

I find the people behind the puppetmasters the really interesting ones, folks like Deripaska and the head of BP, Surkov etc..
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