On Illegal + Legal Immigration: The Exact Opposite of What You think is True, is True - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15042791
Pants-of-dog wrote:@BigSteve

So, what are the causes of illegal migration and how do they differ from the causes of legal migration?


The causes don't really matter, so discussing them (especially with you) is pointless...
#15042796
Finfinder wrote:I'll keep it simple and I just want to say first, that it is seldom that this place makes me respect people and it is seldom to never that I ever take seriously some of the rank and despicable low class comments people make toward any of my posts. There is a forum member @jimjam that I'm good friends with we have met and I have a ton of respect for him, and we have little in common politics wise. When I give people the business it is always in fun and with comradery but I'll have to say for the first time in the couple years I have been on this board I have received comments that are about as low class as they come. You sir have earned my respect, so Ill keep it simple but it is not fun for me to be open only for people to take shots at the honesty.

I think a country should have borders, we need to fix the amnesty loop holes, and we should be able to document who comes here. Overall we should probably shut off immigration (the USA has done this in the past) until we can get those things done and get a handle on who is already here. We need to figure what we are going to do with the people that are here and those who have been here for a long time productively. I don't think we should round -up people and send them back but I also don't think we can have unlimited immigration. I know many Americans that struggle they need financial assistance just as badly if not more than the politicians pandering to illegal immigration. It may be too much to ask for some type of assimilation. Maybe that is what you want or not but I think I'm done for now. Have a great weekend.


This reply got lost -

If you close the border you'll lose loads of GDP, so idk, do you think that's worth it? I think drlee's suggestion was still the best so far..
#15042798
BigSteve wrote:The causes don't really matter, so discussing them (especially with you) is pointless...


What would your immigration policies be? Fin has spelled his out, will you?

Then maybe we can move the debate on, because you two must be dizzy from this debate going in circles now, and could do with changing it up a little?
#15042805
@BigSteve

So, what are the causes of illegal migration and how do they differ from the causes of legal migration?


This question is irrelevant. First a country enforces its immigration laws. It ensures those laws protect its own interests. Then, if it is deemed necessary or advantageous, it works to alleviate the issues that are making people elsewhere want to come to the US.

I do not believe we ought to get that far in the weeds. We have laws and we ought to enforce them. Especially the laws governing the hiring of illegal workers.

Then and only then will we have motivation to stop this ridiculous tag game we are playing. Take away the worker from the employers and they will compel the government to act NOW.
#15042806
How is it irrelevant?

By ignoring why employers hire workers and why migrants come for work, you are ignoring the root causes of the probkem you are teying to solve.

And if you ignore the causes, then the solution will not work.

In this case, it is worth pointing out that yhe authorities never crack down on employers, and there must be a reason for that.
#15042830
Pants-of-dog wrote:How is it irrelevant?

By ignoring why employers hire workers and why migrants come for work, you are ignoring the root causes of the probkem you are teying to solve.

And if you ignore the causes, then the solution will not work.

In this case, it is worth pointing out that yhe authorities never crack down on employers, and there must be a reason for that.


Make no mistake, unless someone has a loaded gun to their head, illegal immigration happens because someone chooses to enter our country illegally. Employers can't make someone enter the country illegally.

That said, I believe that penalties to employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens should be downright draconian...
#15042834
Pants-of-dog wrote:And why do they choose to enter the US illegally, or more typically overstay their visa?


It doesn't matter why. That's the point you're missing...

Also, why do employers use undocumented workers?


I can't answer that, as I never employed an illegal alien...

Finally, why does the government not go after the employers?


I don't know, but I wish they would...
#15042850
Pants-of-dog wrote:Well, if you have no idea why the three main actors in this scenario are acting the way they are, then how are you going to stop any of them?


We don't have to know why someone crosses our border illegally to stop illegal border crossings. That's like saying that a cop can't stop a speeder since he doesn't know why he's speeding.

And we can certainly penalize employers for hiring illegals without knowing why they hired them.

The "why" doesn't matter...
#15042853
BigSteve wrote:We don't have to know why someone crosses our border illegally to stop illegal border crossings.

That's like saying that a cop can't stop a speeder since he doesn't know why he's speeding...


So the plan is to create a perfectly hermetic border?

With the speed at which Trump is building his wall, this should be done around the time that Mexico and the USA are no longer countries.

It would also cost a lot, so why would anyone pay for it? Remember, the companies that hire undocumented workers and the government itself benefit from this, so they are not going to pay extra for something that is bad for them.
#15042854
How is it irrelevant?


As I said. First you enforce the laws on the books.

By ignoring why employers hire workers and why migrants come for work, you are ignoring the root causes of the probkem you are teying to solve.


Of course. But that is not at issue. The issue is the law.

If you want my personal observation, for what it is worth, we all know why employers hire illegals. They hire them because they are good workers who are willing to work for far less money and in some rare cases are the only workers available and willing to do certain kinds of work. There is absolutely no doubt that illegal workers drive down wages which is as important overall.

And if you ignore the causes, then the solution will not work.


No. Solutions will work if they are enforced. The law IS the reason we act to end illegal immigration. The why they come does not matter except in the abstract.

In this case, it is worth pointing out that yhe authorities never crack down on employers, and there must be a reason for that.


Of course. Employers pay for elections. Also. Consumers want cheap goods and services. Lawmakers know this.
#15042857
Again, until you address why the government is unwilling to enforce the laws, the government will continue to not enforce the laws.

If campaign contributions and lobbyists are one of the reasons, then you need to stop those in order to get government to enforce laws.
#15042860
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the plan is to create a perfectly hermetic border?

With the speed at which Trump is building his wall, this should be done around the time that Mexico and the USA are no longer countries.

It would also cost a lot, so why would anyone pay for it? Remember, the companies that hire undocumented workers and the government itself benefit from this, so they are not going to pay extra for something that is bad for them.


And my point stands unrefuted...
#15042866
Actually, I did refute it.

I pointed out that your plan to stop all illegal immigration by stopping all illegal border crossings would not work. This is because the wall will never be built, the government will never pay to man it, and most undocumented migrants overstay their visa and never cross the border illegally.
#15042870
Pants-of-dog wrote:Actually, I did refute it.


I'm sure you need to tell yourself that, so knock yourself out...

I pointed out that your plan to stop all illegal immigration by stopping all illegal border crossings would not work. This is because the wall will never be built, the government will never pay to man it, and most undocumented migrants overstay their visa and never cross the border illegally.


See, what smart people know is that no single solution will work. Those who lack the ability to think things through believe that, if one thing doesn't address everything, it shouldn't be done at all.

The latter are wrong...
#15042873
Again, until you address why the government is unwilling to enforce the laws, the government will continue to not enforce the laws.


Come on POD. I just explained to you why they won't enforce the laws against employers hiring illegals. What part of what I said do you not understand? I will try to explain it better.

If campaign contributions and lobbyists are one of the reasons, then you need to stop those in order to get government to enforce laws.


Absolutely correct. But we won't.

Pants-of-dog wrote:
So the plan is to create a perfectly hermetic border?

With the speed at which Trump is building his wall, this should be done around the time that Mexico and the USA are no longer countries.


And your point is? This thread is not about the wall.

It would also cost a lot, so why would anyone pay for it? Remember, the companies that hire undocumented workers and the government itself benefit from this, so they are not going to pay extra for something that is bad for them.


I see you finally understand my answer.



And my point stands unrefuted...


What point? You made no point to refute except to agree with us.
#15042898
Finfinder wrote:I'll keep it simple and I just want to say first, that it is seldom that this place makes me respect people and it is seldom to never that I ever take seriously some of the rank and despicable low class comments people make toward any of my posts. There is a forum member @jimjam that I'm good friends with we have met and I have a ton of respect for him, and we have little in common politics wise. When I give people the business it is always in fun and with comradery

Why, thank you FF. Even though we have little in common political wise I, too, respect you and what you have to post …………… even though I am always right and you are always wrong :) .

I am sad to see that the political dynamics in this country have sunken to a level where two people of different opinion cannot simply agree to disagree and have respect for each other. If two people disagree it more often than not leads to a hate filled exchange of profanity and nonsense. Yes I can be quite rough when I encounter these chaps and, before I put them on "ignore" , I try to explain that I have little interest in "debating" with someone who feels a need to insult and demean me simply because I have an opinion that differs from theirs. I am old enough to remember a more civil and unified America …… E. Pluribus Unum anyone?

It's getting cool up here and I look forward to warm sun and palm trees on 11/9. take it easy.
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