Trump has been impeached - Page 19 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15057338
Pants-of-dog wrote:Back to the topic:

Why are Republican senators trying to avoid additional witnesses and evidence?


Republicans aren't trying to avoid anything. You see, that's not the goal. That's simply something they'll do to piss off the left. The impeachment hearings were, at best, a complete farce. Republicans simply intend to to get a little payback, and they should.

The democrats should've understood that their actions during the hearings would have consequences. But they're just too fucking stupid to realize that and, instead, convinced themselves that what they wanted to have happen would come to pass.

Now, they're beginning to realize just how stupid they are...
#15057340
BigSteve wrote:Republicans aren't trying to avoid anything. You see, that's not the goal. That's simply something they'll do to piss off the left.


Wow. You are being even more insulting to Republicans than I was.

I was making then out as devious.

You are claiming that they are not that bright and are just vindictive jerks.

The impeachment hearings were, at best, a complete farce.


No.

Republicans simply intend to to get a little payback, and they should.


So they are deliberately making a farce of federal politics because they are vindictive jerks?

I ignored the rest because it was just you getting mad at Democrats.
#15057343
Pants-of-dog wrote:Wow. You are being even more insulting to Republicans than I was.


Not at all. In fact, this is a masterful move...

I was making then out as devious.


What you think of them is meaningless...

You are claiming that they are not that bright and are just vindictive jerks.


Compared to idiot democrats they're fucking brilliant.

And I have no problem with them being vindictive after the way they were treated during the hearings...

No.


Yes.

So they are deliberately making a farce of federal politics because they are vindictive jerks?


No, they're pointing out that, since democrats wanted to make a farce out of their hearings, there would be consequences...

I ignored the rest because it was just you getting mad at Democrats.


No, you ignored the rest because you're unable to address it intelligently...
#15057345
BigSteve wrote:Not at all. In fact, this is a masterful move...

What you think of them is meaningless...

Compared to idiot democrats they're fucking brilliant.

And I have no problem with them being vindictive after the way they were treated during the hearings...

Yes.

No, they're pointing out that, since democrats wanted to make a farce out of their hearings, there would be consequences...

No, you ignored the rest because you're unable to address it intelligently...


This is not an argument.

It is just name calling and deliberately ignoring facts.

But if you want to argue that Republican senators refuse to hear evidence because they want to be vindictive towards other people, go ahead.
#15057357
late wrote:He was charged with obstruction of Congress. Look, kid, McConnell gave it away, he plans on rigging the trial. You babble constantly, but you rarely say anything.

The charges have already been rigged as was the entire process of hearings. You justified all of that yourself, because it is a political matter not a legal one. As it stands, the Democrats do not have the votes in the Senate. Get used to it. They will not remove Trump from office. Whining isn't going to change that.

Pants-of-dog wrote:It would only make sense if they knew Trump was guilty, and they are worried that they could not actually vote for “not guilty” if this additional evidence is made public.

It doesn't matter whether Trump is guilty or not. The charges themselves are not impeachable offenses. Schumer just wants to create more of a ruckus. Personally, I'm okay with it as long gets to call his witnesses, and Democrats are limited to calling witnesses to counter anything Trump's witnesses offered. Democrats have already had their bite at the apple. They should only be allowed to rebut anything Trump's witnesses testify to, or rebut anything new learned on cross examination.
#15057360
Pants-of-dog wrote:Back to the topic:

Why are Republican senators trying to avoid additional witnesses and evidence?

It would only make sense if they knew Trump was guilty, and they are worried that they could not actually vote for “not guilty” if this additional evidence is made public.


During the congressional investigation, Trump did have witnesses, eg Gordon Sundland. God help the Republicans if this is the best of the bunch. Trump would be lucky to just "quit" as Nixon did, but it's too late for that.

May I add on polls: When over 50% of the people want President Trump impeached, Republicans in office will perceive the odds of being re-elected as diminished, and that they cannot abide.
#15057406
Assassinating Suleimani was a declaration of war, another unwinnable war which will be led by an illiterate moron who's guarantied to repeat all the mistakes the US has made in Iraq and Afghanistan for the past 18 years.

Way to go Donald. You'll show those Iranians who's boss right?

What is better than a war to distract from an impeachment? Things are about to get very, very bad, very, very quickly.
#15057423
Stormsmith wrote:During the congressional investigation, Trump did have witnesses, eg Gordon Sundland.

Trump was not allowed counsel and was not allowed to call any witnesses. Sundland also ultimately stated that he had made assumptions about quid pro quos and the like. Nobody ever told him anything. Not Trump. Nobody. He assumed everything, and then decided to start telling people his assumptions as though he had heard it from someone. This is why I have no problem with the Democrats calling witness. If past is prologue, I can't for the life of me think what they hope to accomplish except for boring us even more while embarrassing themselves.

jimjam wrote:Assassinating Suleimani was a declaration of war, another unwinnable war which will be led by an illiterate moron who's guarantied to repeat all the mistakes the US has made in Iraq and Afghanistan for the past 18 years.

Don't you think you're being a little over-dramatic?

jimjam wrote:What is better than a war to distract from an impeachment?

So far, there is no impeachment.
#15057438
blackjack21 wrote:Trump was not allowed counsel and was not allowed to call any witnesses.


To be fair Trump is more powerful so the credibility of whoever he summons is probably lower than whoever the Senate does. The Senate is in Republican majority so at least half of the witnesses should be the same as who Trump would summon.
#15057443
Patrickov wrote:To be fair Trump is more powerful so the credibility of whoever he summons is probably lower than whoever the Senate does. The Senate is in Republican majority so at least half of the witnesses should be the same as who Trump would summon.

The House of Representatives that voted to impeach President Trump without evidence had a large majority of Democrats and not all the Democrats voted to impeach the President and no Republicans at all. That was where the unfair process began. It appears you are from some other country and don't know what the hell you are talking about on this subject.
#15057445
Hindsite wrote:The House of Representatives that voted to impeach President Trump without evidence had a large majority of Democrats and not all the Democrats voted to impeach the President and no Republicans at all. That was where the unfair process began. It appears you are from some other country and don't know what the hell you are talking about on this subject.
Oh sorry I only see them talking about congress just now. I misread.

But did the Republican Congressmen try to summon anybody?
#15057461
Patrickov wrote:Oh sorry I only see them talking about congress just now. I misread.

But did the Republican Congressmen try to summon anybody?

The Democrats would not allow them to do so.
#15057466
Patrickov wrote:To be fair Trump is more powerful so the credibility of whoever he summons is probably lower than whoever the Senate does.

Impeachment was always going to fail, because Democrats did not have the votes in the Senate. However, I think the Democrats had hoped that they could score some sort of a moral victory and that this moral victory would translate into political support for the Democrats. That has backfired in a big way. Here's why: American law presumes all persons are equal under the law and have the same rights under law, some secured by the constitution itself via the Bill of Rights. For example, all criminal defendants have:

1. Right to be represented by counsel at all stages of the proceedings.
2. Right to confront their accusers
3. Right to question witnesses against them
4. Right to compel witnesses to their own defense
5. Right to be informed of the nature and cause of the charges against them
6. Right to a speedy trial.
7. Right to remain silent and to be free from compulsion to testify against themselves.
8. Right to a jury of their peers
9. Right to be free from cruel and unusual punishments

... and so on.

The Democrats have systematically violated much of what is standard practice for private citizens under American law during these proceedings. So morally, what the Democrats have done is a procedural abomination--it's what communist countries do to their political dissidents.

1. Criminal defendants are entitled to be represented by counsel at all stages of proceedings against them. Trump's attorneys were not allowed to attend House proceedings. Democrats hoped nobody would notice, but we did.

2. Eric Ciaramella is the accuser but his attorneys have threatened to sue pretty much everyone involved if his name is brought into the proceedings. Accusers are not entitled to anonymity. The whistleblower law only applies to actions within the whistleblower's employ--meaning actions by CIA personnel for a CIA whistleblower. The protections of the whistleblower statute do not apply to Ciaramella. The CIA and intelligence overseers like Schumer and Schiff leveraged this law to try to create an array of anonymous accusers. That's basically against the US Bill of Rights in a trial accusing someone of a crime. Democrats were hoping nobody would notice, but everyone did.

3. As a consequence of having no attorneys present at all stages of the proceedings, Trump's attorneys were not allowed to question or cross-examine witnesses against him. Republicans did a fine job impeaching their credibility, but Trump was expressly denied his right to question and cross-examine witnesses against him.

4. Trump was not allowed to call witnesses to his own defense. Again, the Republicans did an excellent job of forcing the witnesses to admit that they had not witnessed any criminal wrongdoing, and that everything they had heard was from hearsay sources--evidence that is typically inadmissible in criminal cases.

5. The charges are not actual laws. Consequently, the charges against him violate the laws of notice, and fail to inform him of both the nature (what are the elements of the offense) and the cause of the charges. By trying to define them in the articles of impeachment themselves, the Democrats are effectively trying him ex post facto of something that wasn't a law when they charged him. Again, Democrats hoped nobody would notice or object. However, the proceedings against Trump are manifestly unfair.

6. So in impeaching Trump and then sitting on the articles of impeachment, the Democrats are now violating Trump's right to a speedy trial--yet another constitutionally enumerated right of a criminal defendant.

In addition to the foregoing, Trump's persecutors have already breached attorney-client privilege in examining everything between him and his erstwhile counsel, Michael Cohen. The House wanted to, and Senate Democrats are asking to make the White House counsel--Trump's official attorney--a witness against Trump. Again, these are actions that are way outside the norms of American law.

That's just a collateral attack on what the Democrats are trying to do to Trump. The Democrats obvious motivation is that the DoJ is uncovering the lies of the Trump-Russia hoax, including the use of US intelligence agencies to spy on domestic political campaigns, and to collude with other political campaigns and operatives such as Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele, which may lead to the prosecution of Democratic-sympathizing deep state actors. Additionally, Trump has taken the affirmative step of reviewing the actions of people like Joe Biden for violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act--which the Democrats are trying to assert is an abuse of power. It isn't. In fact, nobody would even know about this as a political matter had the Democrats not made an effort to make it public and predicate an impeachment effort upon it.

Patrickov wrote:The Senate is in Republican majority so at least half of the witnesses should be the same as who Trump would summon.

As noted, I don't think the witnesses are relevant, because the charges are not relevant. Indeed, Pelosi has not even transmitted them to the Senate.

Patrickov wrote:But did the Republican Congressmen try to summon anybody?

All witnesses were determined by the Democrats.
By late
#15057505
blackjack21 wrote:
The charges have already been rigged as was the entire process of hearings.



Rubber and glue!

May I safely assume that's one you didn't get from Breitbart?
#15057706
late wrote:Rubber and glue!

May I safely assume that's one you didn't get from Breitbart?

The charges, if ever presented to the Senate, will most likely be dismissed as partisan nonsense.
Praise the Lord.
#15057715
He's been impeached. Regardless of what happens from here, he is one of only 3 US Presidents to ever be impeached, which demonstrates how corrupt he actually is, to the whole world, just not his stupid worshipers.
#15057722
He is not. Trump is not impeached because lower chamber did not pass articles to upper chamber of Congress. And Senate do not yet vote to remove Donald Trump from the office.

[deletion of rule 2 violation - Prosthetic Conscience]
By late
#15057740
Hindsite wrote:
The charges, if ever presented to the Senate, will most likely be dismissed as partisan nonsense.



McConnell already admits he plans to obstruct justice.

Oh wait, that's in the real world.
#15057863
late wrote:McConnell already admits he plans to obstruct justice.

No, McConnell did not say he was going to obstruct justice. That is just a crazy liberal talking point from the lying Democrats.
By late
#15057911
Hindsite wrote:
No, McConnell did not say he was going to obstruct justice. That is just a crazy liberal talking point from the lying Democrats.



There is a mandated oath that requires a Senator to promise to be impartial.

McConnell has said more than once he has no intention of being impartial.

Project much?
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