[BigSteve]

Big Steve's anecdotes are stupid and irrelevant. His posting a probably staged photo and apparent meme is more pitiful than normal. And @Drlee should stop it with the removing the names of people he quotes. I remember when he made the comment as though he doesn't want to shame them by including the username. The username is important context, I want to see who it is you are quoting. So stop removing the username.

You need to stop whining so much...

[late]

Unless you can show how merely paying someone more money will make a difference, there's no reason to believe it would.

Read the book, and lay off the idiotic excuses, just for a while, m'kay?

"Raising the federal minimum wage will also stimulate consumer spending, help businesses’ bottom lines, and grow the economy. A modest increase would improve worker productivity, and reduce employee turnoverand absenteeism. It would also boost the overall economy by generating increased consumer demand.

https://edlabor.house.gov/media/blog/raising-the-minimum-wage_good-for-workers-businesses-and-the-economy

"This leaves an adult working at minimum wage with two children thousands of dollars below the federal poverty threshold, no matter how committed he or she may be to the all-American work ethic. If the minimum wage in 1968 had kept up with labor’s productivity growth, it would have reached $19.33 an hour in 2017. However, in 22 states, including North Carolina, the federal standard sets the limit, and it has not been adjusted by inflation, cost of living or anything that reflects the reality of production. This is unacceptable."

https://www.thepilot.com/opinion/column-increasing-the-minimum-wage-has-ethical-economic-benefits/article_815f5e22-5af4-11e9-aa14-2f6867673585.html

"In economics, a beggar-thy-neighbour policy is an economic policy through which one country attempts to remedy its economic problems by means that tend to worsen the economic problems of other countries.

"Adam Smith made reference to the term in claiming that mercantilist economic doctrine taught nations "that their interest lies in beggaring all their neighbours".

Not even Adam Smith agrees with you on this one, this is pre-capitalist thinking... You have taken a short sighted Mercantilist idea and are using to benefit yourself at the expense of most of the rest of the country, but to savage effect on the poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggar_thy_neighbour

[BigSteve]

I am quite sure there are far more businesses, including multinational corporations with multi million dollar CEOs that are run into the ground by inept management than are ever tanked by an entry level worker.

I absolutely agree with that.

Thank you for not coming close to addressing the point I made...

I will tell you though that people who are happy at work and who are treated with respect as valued employees will routinely outperform those who are treated like you seem to believe your mythical sandwich maker should be treated.

I said nothing about how the sandwich maker should be treated, other than that type of job performance doesn't warrant $15 an hour. That employee should be fired or trained. Although, to be honest, how much training should it really take to get someone to put a slice of cheese on a sandwich correctly?

There's a quote by Richard Branson which I strive to adhere to every day: "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to."

My employees love working for me...

[BigSteve]

Read the book, and lay off the idiotic excuses, just for a while, m'kay?

Just as expected. Given the opportunity to support your bullshit claim, you failed.

You're the most predictable guy on the internet...

[Drlee]

@BigSteve Unless you can show how merely paying someone more money will make a difference, there's no reason to believe it would. Unless you can show how getting a new employee and paying them $15 an hour would make a difference, there's no reason to believe it would.

You really don't realize that you are making his argument for him, do you?

Your contention seems to be that one of two things should happen:

1. You accept shoddy workmanship because the wages are low.

2. You fire the bad employee and get one who can do the job.

If these are your arguments then number one fails because it is deadly for the boss. (A bad business decision.)

Of number two is true then higher wages allow you to hire better people.

And, since everyone here on PoFo knows that you routinely run away from actually backing up your bullshit statements, the idea that merely paying someone $15 an hour would fix it is stupid...

No. What is stupid is not understanding why you pay higher wages. You do it because it allows you to have higher expectations of the employee. That is and always has been true in every industry since the beginning of time. Wages are about scarcity of labor.

A $15.00 an hour minimum wage helps the employer who owns that sandwich shop in one major way. Now his job is competitive with other jobs. He is not in a marketplace disadvantage because his competition has the same cost of labor load and all of these people making more money can afford sandwiches.

You see BS the issue of getting better product is tied to wages because getting better more motivated employees (or any employees at all) is tied to wages. That is unless you are a communist who believes that all workers should get the same wages in which case your argument would make complete sense. I am a capitalist. I believe that money talks and bullshit walks.

[late]

Just as expected. Given the opportunity to support your bullshit claim, you failed.

"Raising the federal minimum wage will also stimulate consumer spending, help businesses’ bottom lines, and grow the economy. A modest increase would improve worker productivity, and reduce employee turnoverand absenteeism. It would also boost the overall economy by generating increased consumer demand.

https://edlabor.house.gov/media/blog/ra ... he-economy

"This leaves an adult working at minimum wage with two children thousands of dollars below the federal poverty threshold, no matter how committed he or she may be to the all-American work ethic. If the minimum wage in 1968 had kept up with labor’s productivity growth, it would have reached $19.33 an hour in 2017. However, in 22 states, including North Carolina, the federal standard sets the limit, and it has not been adjusted by inflation, cost of living or anything that reflects the reality of production. This is unacceptable."

https://www.thepilot.com/opinion/column ... 73585.html

"In economics, a beggar-thy-neighbour policy is an economic policy through which one country attempts to remedy its economic problems by means that tend to worsen the economic problems of other countries.

"Adam Smith made reference to the term in claiming that mercantilist economic doctrine taught nations "that their interest lies in beggaring all their neighbours".

Not even Adam Smith agrees with you on this one, this is pre-capitalist thinking... You have taken a short sighted Mercantilist idea and are using to benefit yourself at the expense of most of the rest of the country, but to savage effect on the poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggar_thy_neighbour

[BigSteve]

You see BS the issue of getting better product is tied to wages because getting better more motivated employees (or any employees at all) is tied to wages. That is unless you are a communist who believes that all workers should get the same wages in which case your argument would make complete sense. I am a capitalist. I believe that money talks and bullshit walks.

Another motivation for an employee is that, if he does a better job than others doing the same job, he'll get a raise. I have plenty of employees who do the same job as other employees and get paid more than the others. Why? They're more proficient and efficient, that's why. This, in turn, motivates those who want to be paid more and then they start becoming more proficient and efficient...

[late]

Another motivation for an employee is that, if he does a better job than others doing the same job, he'll get a raise. I have plenty of employees who do the same job as other employees and get paid more than the others. Why? They're more proficient and efficient, that's why. This, in turn, motivates those who want to be paid more and then they start becoming more proficient and efficient...

There are good reasons we threw Scrooge into the dustbin of history, which is what my previous post is about.

Love it the way you whine about me not doing good posts (while you never do good posts) and then ignore them when I put in the effort to write something decent.

I know, you thought I hadn't noticed..

[BigSteve]

There are good reasons we threw Scrooge into the dustbin of history, which is what my previous post is about.

Love it the way you whine about me not doing good posts (while you never do good posts) and then ignore them when I put in the effort to write something decent.

I know, you thought I hadn't noticed..

What is it you wrote?

"Not even Adam Smith agrees with you on this one, this is pre-capitalist thinking... You have taken a short sighted Mercantilist idea and are using to benefit yourself at the expense of most of the rest of the country, but to savage effect on the poor."??

That took effort?

Everything else in that post was cut and paste. See, when I discuss something with someone, I'm interested in their thoughts, not what Google tells them to say.

Doing what you do only reinforces the fact that you're ill-prepared to engage in such conversations on your own...

[late]

See, when I discuss something with someone, I'm interested in their thoughts, not what Google tells them to say.

Doing what you do only reinforces the fact that you're ill-prepared to engage in such conversations on your own...

You can't reply on point, you are (once again) completely out of your depth. So you throw excuses around, hoping they will be plausible. Once or twice, that will work. But it's pathetic as a lifestyle choice.

[Drlee]

Another motivation for an employee is that, if he does a better job than others doing the same job, he'll get a raise.

Yes. And nothing in a higher minimum wage prevents that at all. Indeed the increased business from a wider client base could make it easier. But the fact remains that a higher wage also makes the bad employee easier to replace.

Better living conditions make an employee more reliable. The ability to have stable housing, a sufficient diet and some recreation improves workplace performance.

Using a standard natural experiment design Georgiadis (2013) for example found that the U.K. national minimum wage has operated as akind of “efficiency wage”in the residential care homes sector, increasing motivation and leading to a reduction in the level of worker supervision required. Experimental evidence in the U.S. by Owens and Kagel(2010) also pointsto a positive relationship between minimum wages and workers' effort, leading to the conclusion that –if well-designed –minimum wages can generate improved outcomeswhere employees have higher wages and employers have the same, or slightly higher, average labour cost. https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_protect/---protrav/---travail/documents/genericdocument/wcms_476157.pdf

The above cited paper is particularly interesting, well documented and concise. I commend it to everyone.

For you @BigSteve I fully expect you to disagree with it and present not a shred of evidence that any of its studies are flawed or any equally careful studies to support your position. But maybe you will read it, if not the hundreds more finding the same conclusions, and, for a change, change. I don't mean this to be snarky. There was a time when I agreed with your position entirely. I believed in completely market driven pay. But I have been convinced by the evidence in favor of a livable minimum wage.

You asked for evidence and I gave it to you. The ball is in your court.

[BigSteve]

You can't reply on point, you are (once again) completely out of your depth. So you throw excuses around, hoping they will be plausible. Once or twice, that will work. But it's pathetic as a lifestyle choice.

You're completely dismissed. You're incapable of providing any person, intelligent thought on any topic whatsoever.

We laugh at you...

[late]

You're completely dismissed. You're incapable of providing any person, intelligent thought on any topic whatsoever.

I accept your implicit admission of defeat.

[Pants-of-dog]

What's "obvious" here is that inept people are demanding $15 an hour.

If someone can't make that sandwich correctly for $8 an hour, they're not going to make it correctly for $15 an hour. Money does not magically impart skills, and you've presented exactly zero evidence to support the idea that paying a new employee $15 an hour would result in a correctly made sandwich...

Correctly made sandwiches are made all the time by people making minimum wage.

You are incorrectly assuming that all sandwiches made by minimum wage workers look like your photo.

[BigSteve]

Yes. And nothing in a higher minimum wage prevents that at all.

Oh, but it does.

Right now, I start all of my warehouse guys off at $11 an hour for their first 90 days; a probationary period. After that, depending on the particular job in the warehouse their pay will be raised anywhere from $11.75 an hour to $12.90 an hour. After six months, they get another raise, ranging from $12.35 an hour to $13.50 an hour. After a year on the job, the range goes to $13.35 to $14.50 an hour. Subsequent raises will then be applied annually, if the individual's supervisor believes it's warranted.

If minimum wage goes to $15, though, you know what goes away? Or at least becomes less frequent?

Raises.

The motivation of a raise in exchange for a job well done is very strong. My employees know me to be fair, reasonable, and appreciative. Ergo, my people excel to secure their raises.

But, if I have to start a warehouse employee off at $15 an hour, he's not going to see a raise for a very long time. Furthermore, if his performance isn't spot on, every time, every day, he'll probably be fired. At a lower hourly rate, the motivation to not fuck up is certainly there, because fucking up can mean no raise. At $15 an hour, if there are no raises on the horizon (and there wouldn't be), the only motivation to not be a fuck up is so you don't get fired.

That's absolutely not how I want to motivate my employees. I prefer to use positive motivation to inspire my people, and it works very, very well...

Indeed the increased business from a wider client base could make it easier. But the fact remains that a higher wage also makes the bad employee easier to replace.

No, it doesn't. It's not as simple as "replacing the bad employee". Replacing an employee costs money, and it has a ripple effect. HR not only has to do all of the termination paperwork and dealing with the personnel issues of firing someone, but they also have to do everything to bring a new person on board. The department supervisor then has to train someone else to do a job that someone else had already been trained to do.

And all of that could've been avoided if the person simply did his fucking job...

Better living conditions make an employee more reliable. The ability to have stable housing, a sufficient diet and some recreation improves workplace performance.

Absolutely agree with that.

However, it's not incumbent upon me to make sure the people who work for me have adequate housing, food transportation, etc. I pay my people well; certainly above industry norms and certainly well for Florida. In Florida, the average hourly pay for a warehouse manager is right around $20 an hour. It's the second lowest in the country. My warehouse manager gets paid $24.50 an hour, which is in the top four in the country.

The above cited paper is particularly interesting, well documented and concise. I commend it to everyone.

For you @BigSteve I fully expect you to disagree with it and present not a shred of evidence that any of its studies are flawed or any equally careful studies to support your position. But maybe you will read it, if not the hundreds more finding the same conclusions, and, for a change, change. I don't mean this to be snarky. There was a time when I agreed with your position entirely. I believed in completely market driven pay. But I have been convinced by the evidence in favor of a livable minimum wage.

You asked for evidence and I gave it to you. The ball is in your court.

It's an interesting read, but none of it successfully refutes the effectiveness of how I run my business.

My business is very successful, and the tenets and philosophies I had when I started this business remain today. I'm proud of my company and the people who choose to work for me, and they are proud to say they work for me. I'm most proud of the fact that, over the last three years, I have only had to fire two people. One was a road rep who got a DUI (if you lose your license you can't drive and be a road rep). He was actually offered another position within the company, but he declined. We had no option but to terminate him. Another employee failed a random urinalysis and was sent packing.

I've had four women leave the company over the years because of pregnancies, although every one of them were told their job was here if they wanted to return. One came back, the other three are blissfully content being Moms.

My employees are happy with how they're treated, and that's the only thing that matters to me. I have no intention of altering how I conduct business, simply because how I conduct business works well for all involved...

[BigSteve]

Correctly made sandwiches are made all the time by people making minimum wage.

You are incorrectly assuming that all sandwiches made by minimum wage workers look like your photo.

I see enough of those photos to tell me order fuck ups occur way more often than they should.

I went by Burger King the other day. I ordered a Whopper with cheese, a drink and a small order of fries. When I sat down and unwrapped my sandwich, I saw that it didn't have any cheese on it. I looked at my receipt and it clearly showed that I'd ordered the sandwich with cheese.

I went to the counter and the "I want $15 an hour" counter girl had the audacity to tell me that I actually didn't order it with cheese, but that she mistakenly entered the sandwich with cheese.

Fucking what?

This, despite the fact that I was standing there asking for cheese, and showing her a receipt which shows that's what I paid for.

Fuckin' dolt.

If I go to a fast food restaurant (and I'll be swearing off of them in 2020) ten times, something will be wrong at least 4 out of those ten visits. A 40% fuck up rate is too high and does not warrant a raise. We're not talking about fucking rocket science here. Someone already put a man o the moon. All the hard shit's done. We're talking about the ability to get a fast food order right.


If you fuck up your job 40% of the time, you should be fired...

[Pants-of-dog]

I see enough of those photos to tell me order fuck ups occur way more often than they should.

I went by Burger King the other day. I ordered a Whopper with cheese, a drink and a small order of fries. When I sat down and unwrapped my sandwich, I saw that it didn't have any cheese on it. I looked at my receipt and it clearly showed that I'd ordered the sandwich with cheese.

I went to the counter and the "I want $15 an hour" counter girl had the audacity to tell me that I actually didn't order it with cheese, but that she mistakenly entered the sandwich with cheese.

Fucking what?

This, despite the fact that I was standing there asking for cheese, and showing her a receipt which shows that's what I paid for.

Fuckin' dolt.

If I go to a fast food restaurant (and I'll be swearing off of them in 2020) ten times, something will be wrong at least 4 out of those ten visits. A 40% fuck up rate is too high and does not warrant a raise. We're not talking about fucking rocket science here. Someone already put a man o the moon. All the hard shit's done. We're talking about the ability to get a fast food order right.


If you fuck up your job 40% of the time, you should be fired...

All of this is irrelevant.

Your photo only condemns a single sandwich maker. Yet you are using it as evidence that all sandwich makers do not deserve a living wage.

It is a generalisation, and therefore a logical fallacy.

[BigSteve]

Your photo only condemns a single sandwich maker. Yet you are using it as evidence that all sandwich makers do not deserve a living wage.

Is $15 a "living wage"?

You're correct in that the photo I posted condemns only a single sandwich maker. But if I were to post 100 similar photos I'd be condemning 100 separate sandwich makers.

Is it fair to condemn them all? Probably not, but you know what they say: It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch.

More and more I'm seeing self-serve kiosks in fast food joints, as well as an increase in self serve lanes in grocery stores and even stores like CVS and Walgreen's. The primary catalyst behind these is economic. Instead of paying a cashier $15 an hour, the stores would rather invest in machines.

A typical four lane self-checkout set up costs about $125K.

My local grocery store is open from 8am until 10pm and they have a four lane check out set up. So, instead of four cashiers operating those four lanes 14 hours a day, at a cost of $5,880 a week in hourly cashier pay, customers will now check themselves out. At $5,880 dollars a week, that four lane set up will pay for itself in about five months.

Now, when you consider that this grocery chain (Publix) offers a contribution matched 401K, profit sharing and excellent health benefits, it doesn't take a genius to see how moving to these set-ups will save employers a lot of money while, at the same time, forcing those who were stupid enough to demand higher pay out of work through their own actions...

[Drlee]

The problem with your argument @BigSteve is that your plan does not include the minimum wage so your results do not reflect the minimum wage.

You are mentioning a #15.00 per hour minimum wage but we are not arguing a $15.00 per hour minimum wage. We are arguing a livable wage. You seem to be paying that now so your business is not a good example. If you lived in San Francisco and paid what you pay you could not find any employees. That is why I believe a livable wage should vary based upon locale. It is not a one-size-fits-all argument.
I posted evidence that raising the minimum wage is good for all concerned. Nothing you have posted argues otherwise.

[BigSteve]

The problem with your argument @BigSteve is that your plan does not include the minimum wage so your results do not reflect the minimum wage.

You are mentioning a #15.00 per hour minimum wage but we are not arguing a $15.00 per hour minimum wage. We are arguing a livable wage. You seem to be paying that now so your business is not a good example. If you lived in San Francisco and paid what you pay you could not find any employees. That is why I believe a livable wage should vary based upon locale. It is not a one-size-fits-all argument.
I posted evidence that raising the minimum wage is good for all concerned. Nothing you have posted argues otherwise.

On what, exactly, would that "livable wage" be based?