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By late
#15061070
Trolls repeat propaganda to disrupt the normal reach for compromise and consensus.

Doing that does enormous damage to the country, and frankly, it's batshit crazy.

But that's what they do.
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By colliric
#15061071
late wrote:But that's what they do.


It's called sticking up for real Freedom Of Speech, the freedom to say things which WILL upset people.

These people know that of the wrong people get in power, they will push censorship and "Freedom Of Speech within reason" as Sasha Baron Cohen put it.

That's not Freedom Of Speech. Free Speech includes the God given right to say things other people don't like. The right to TROLL people.
User avatar
By drguitar
#15061072
colliric wrote:It's called sticking up for real Freedom Of Speech, the freedom to say things which WILL upset people.

These people know that of the wrong people get in power, they will push censorship and "Freedom Of Speech within reason" as Sasha Baron Cohen put it.

That's not Freedom Of Speech. Free Speech includes the God given right to say things other people don't like. The right to TROLL people.


I don't think the word Troll means what you think it means. And "Free Speech" definitely does not mean what you think it means. Free Speech is not a "God given right" and has nothing to do with "saying things other people don't like". Saying things that others don't like JUST BECAUSE you know they won't like it is being an obnoxious ass. And likewise Trolling people has nothing to do with the Freedom of Speech with the single exception that you have the right to be an obnoxious ass in public. If that is how you would like to be known, enjoy your future; it's looking bleak.
Freedom of Speech just means the right to speak freely without censorship.

However you are still completely off topic.
#15061073
Godstud wrote:China isn't constantly at war with anyone<cough USA> so please, leave your high and mighty morality at home. It's tiresome BS. :roll:


Making war does not necessarily make a country bad. I personally think there are too few wars, while some of them that actually happened were for the wrong target and reason.

I can do the said BS in another thread with much more proof and reason but I admit I am simply too busy in real life to engage in creating (what I think) propaganda on this forum.

Back on topic, I think there are some people who simply went crazy because they cannot pull Trump down, and that complete disregard of whatever good Trump had done (albeit unintentional) is very disgusting to me.

EDIT: I believe Trump -- for what he had done (intentional or not), NOT what he had said -- which is practically hard to be true given his status as a public figure. There is no need to compare him with any other politicians.
Last edited by Patrickov on 23 Jan 2020 04:29, edited 1 time in total.
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By colliric
#15061094
drguitar wrote:I don't think the word Troll means what you think it means. And "Free Speech" definitely does not mean what you think it means. Free Speech is not a "God given right" and has nothing to do with "saying things other people don't like".


I know what online Trolling is. It got me banned from Rottentomatoes once. People have the right to troll, and have their posts deleted and account banned if they break current forum rules that they know are the established rules. They can then go to 4chan and reddit and continue trolling.
By Pants-of-dog
#15061166
Rancid wrote:Perhaps Trump's philosophy is kind of like murderer. YOU keep doing because, hey, they can only hang you once!


I think it is more complicated than that.

First of all, Trump actually receives no punishment for lying. While the Republicans of former years would have withdrawn support in the fact of such obvious dishonesty, modern Republicans are fine with it.

I think there are historical or societal reasons for this, as well as individual things about Trump.

We had the rise of post truth politics with Bush Jr., which has now snowballed into a situation where even obviously wrong and obviously intentional lies are accepted by North American voters. This is one factor that has increased both the gullibility of people and their apathy towards truth. Other social reasons include that weird streak of anti-intellectualism in US society, and the oddly high number of people who believe in Creationism.

And then there is Trumo as an individual. He knows how to lie well. I do not mean that he tells convincing lies that could be easily be mistaken. I mean that he knows exactly what the audience wants to hear. And because of that, the audience does not care if it a lie. And he also uses lies effectively to keep his opponents off balance and one step behind. He just tells a crazy lie, and it leaves the Democrats stunned. By the time they react to ot, he has moved on to the next attack. He must have lots of practice.
By Finfinder
#15061179
Godstud wrote::roll: Why do you feel that this is personal? It is not. It's not all about YOU. .


I don't feel anything I post here fro my own entertainment. Its must have been the fact that you replied directly to me with ad hominem personal attacks that I replied back to you in the first person. No biggie it comes with the territory and one should expect that from you especially when you are losing an argument.

Godstud wrote::Why not simply accept that Trump lies more than most politicians and explain why you still love him, despite that? An honest answer would help. .


I said all politicians lie, Trump included, getting into who lies the most and saying I" love" a politician is simply juvenile and something more fitting for a Nickelodeon politics forum discussion. Must be a Canadian thing you guys always talk about peoples feeling when you are losing an argument.

drguitar wrote:Only one person answered the original topic question for themselves:

It would have been nice if they would have answered the second question as well; maybe that one was too personal.

I often hear Trump supporters say, "All politicians lie." This argument is childish and naive. I cannot believe that they truly think any politician lies anywhere near a level like Trump. The sheer quantity and absurdity of his lying is mind boggling. The fact that he so easily lies to allied world leaders and the American public makes him a danger to our democracy by creating an unstable core to free nations around the world. But I digress.

Quite a few folks stood up for Trump in this topic. If they would be willing to answer the original questions, then we might all learn something about the importance (or lack of) of honest politicians among Trump supporters. And please refrain from off topic rants please.


Funny thing is your entire topic is dishonest. You purposely frame the question by imposing strict rules for replies which support your theory. There must 10 other threads on this same topic you could have participated in so what exactly is the purpose of this thread? What are you trying to intellectually glean from this other than thinking you can camouflage a troll. Your are funny. You are extremely partisan in your posts yet think that a sentence at the end of them somehow renders you a neutral observer. Reality, we have learned more about you than "honesty amongst Trump supporters" in this thread. Keep trying though.
By late
#15061181
colliric wrote:
It's called sticking up for real Freedom Of Speech, the freedom to say things which WILL upset people.

These people know that of the wrong people get in power, they will push censorship and "Freedom Of Speech within reason" as Sasha Baron Cohen put it.

That's not Freedom Of Speech. Free Speech includes the God given right to say things other people don't like. The right to TROLL people.



Freedom requires some restraint.

Again, democracy requires compromise. Your propaganda techniques are intended to undermine and eventually destroy both freedom and democracy.

But Putin approves..
By Code Rood
#15061182
Finfinder wrote:So lazy a Google search and paste a few links they don't dare debate in their own words. :lol:

So who would better than Trump. Pick one............Joe Biden? Hillary Clinton ? Bernie Sanders? Pocahontas Warren ?

What exactly again have you proven ? Don't be afraid pick one and explain why you are morally a better person than someone that would support a Trump agenda. :lol:


Kidney cancer or lung cancer. You have to pick one.
User avatar
By drguitar
#15061200
Finfinder wrote:Funny thing is your entire topic is dishonest. You purposely frame the question by imposing strict rules for replies which support your theory. There must 10 other threads on this same topic you could have participated in so what exactly is the purpose of this thread? What are you trying to intellectually glean from this other than thinking you can camouflage a troll. Your are funny. You are extremely partisan in your posts yet think that a sentence at the end of them somehow renders you a neutral observer. Reality, we have learned more about you than "honesty amongst Trump supporters" in this thread. Keep trying though.

I stated a fact, not a theory. I asked 2 questions based on that fact. You avoid answering the questions because... fear of the truth, embarrassment, lack of maturity... who knows. You do seem to be good at poorly divining the intentions of others though.
Rather than guessing at my intentions (which I already clearly and honestly stated), you could answer the original questions or just don't participate if you do not feel the ability to answer honestly like a mature adult.
By Finfinder
#15061218
I have, you just don't like the answers which your clearly defined (stated an opinion)of what they should be from the start, by framing that counter arguments are not allowed (childish).
By Pants-of-dog
#15061228
If @Finfinder is arguing that Trump does not lie any more than the average politician, then Finfinder can provide evidence for this claim.

The evidence that has already been presented in the thread supports the claim in the OP: that Trump lies significantly more than the average politician.
By Finfinder
#15061243
Pants-of-dog wrote:If @Finfinder is arguing that Trump does not lie any more than the average politician, then Finfinder can provide evidence for this claim.

The evidence that has already been presented in the thread supports the claim in the OP: that Trump lies significantly more than the average politician.


The only evidence presented in this thread are copied and pasted google searches which contain links to politically biased new sources like the Washington Post and un -authored sources like Wikipedia.

No procedure has been outlined to indicate what parameters or properties of the what you are measuring. Specifications such as fact details as the type of standard or instrument used to conclude a falsehood, the weight of a falsehood and if it counted multiple times if repeated. Especially given the source uncertainties and biases.

If you can agree that your proof is not a scientific unbiased study which weighs these falsehoods as compared to other presidents then I can concede the lack of the number of links and available for counter arguments.

As evidence if you type a google search "president Obama's lies" the search results find mostly articles about Trumps lies. If you get more specific and search "Washington Post list of Obama lies" the first result, is an article about Obama that only examines 250 statements by him, the 2nd result is a 2017 article by the NY Times " Trump out lies Obama sixfold" and the 3rd result is a Washington Post article on Trumps lies.
User avatar
By drguitar
#15061248
Finfinder wrote:I have, you just don't like the answers which your clearly defined (stated an opinion)of what they should be from the start, by framing that counter arguments are not allowed (childish).


I looked at all of the responses and posts you made for this topic and found nothing that came close to responses to the original question. So in your own way, you lied. The fact that quantifiable information at your fingertips is ignored or discounted by you in favor of conjecture and side stepping tells me that you don't believe that Donald Trump lies any more than anyone else (or in your mind, other politicians).
I am truly sorry for you, really. Your view of the US is bleak at best. Even worse is that you feel that everyone lies to you in the media as a matter of course (with the exception of Fox "news"?). My guess is that you are a young adult that has no frame of reference for honest journalism and/or live in a community that is extremely isolated politically and in turn is fearful of anyone outside that community. My wish for you is that you travel outside your community someday with your eyes open to the diversity and beauty of other cultures and peoples. It's a big world and you cannot hide forever.
Good luck.
#15061252
drguitar wrote:
I looked at all of the responses and posts you made for this topic and found nothing that came close to responses to the original question. So in your own way, you lied. The fact that quantifiable information at your fingertips is ignored or discounted by you in favor of conjecture and side stepping tells me that you don't believe that Donald Trump lies any more than anyone else (or in your mind, other politicians).
I am truly sorry for you, really. Your view of the US is bleak at best. Even worse is that you feel that everyone lies to you in the media as a matter of course (with the exception of Fox "news"?). My guess is that you are a young adult that has no frame of reference for honest journalism and/or live in a community that is extremely isolated politically and in turn is fearful of anyone outside that community. My wish for you is that you travel outside your community someday with your eyes open to the diversity and beauty of other cultures and peoples. It's a big world and you cannot hide forever.
Good luck.
Maybe a simpler approach is that just ask the questions ("Do you believe Trump? Who else believe Trump? Why?") again.

On a side note, I found some previous posts contain claims that only one answered the question. I believe my posts in this thread had, yet I do see some other posters have answered the question more directly. So I want to know who did answer, and why the others (mainly mine, if I guessed correctly) didn't.
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By Godstud
#15061254
@Finfinder Don't be all sanctimonious with me when you whine about an ad hominem then immediately use on on me. You do LOVE Trump. You have never posted anything but complete and utter support for everything and anything he has ever done(or said), and even a Canadian can see the obvious truth, for what it is.

You lost the argument the moment you attempted to imply that Trump lies just like other politicians. He doesn't, and that supported by facts. @drguitar pointed that out, and you lashed out at him in a most emotional manner.

The topic isn't dishonest. The Trump zealots who respond that Trump doesn't lie, are.
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15061259
colliric wrote:Every politician lies! He just let's everyone know he's lying.... It's his thing. He's a good salesman.

He exaggerates constantly. Sometimes for rhetorical flourish, and sometimes for comic effect. The Washington Post "lie count" is pointless. If Donald Trump says, "Adam Schiff has the smallest neck I've ever seen", the media takes issue with it. They do not seem to realize that Trump is trolling them endlessly.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The rest of the article focuses on scientific research into Trump’s lies and why people love them.

People take most of what Trump says with a grain of salt. Where they examine closely what he says is when he talks about what policies he's going to push. The rest of it is just a PT Barnum show. You're not meant to believe it. You are meant to be entertained; or alternatively, if you are a Trump detractor, driven mad by his constant trolling.

Godstud wrote:Fools conned by Trump believe him because they will appear to be even bigger fools if they admit to their foolish trust in a pathological liar, who makes even other politicians look honest, by comparison.

Trump addressed two substantive issues that the establishment didn't want to touch: illegal immigration and trade. He has acted on both. That's why nobody cares if he says he's "the best president ever" and so forth. He does it to piss people like you off and entertain his base.

QatzelOk wrote:I don't think Trump's honesty or credibility or morality are important at all to voters.

He's fun to watch on TV. Case closed.

He's funny too, as an insult comic. He called Jerry Nadler a "total sleazebag" in Davos. I belly laughed, because you just never know what the hell the guy is going to say. The Queen of England loves him, because he's a lot like her husband, and because he called the mayor of London a "stone cold loser." Most politicians think it graceful to take hits. Trump hits right back.

drguitar wrote:I want to understand what folks think about Trump's endless and consistent lying.

It's entertaining.

drguitar wrote:I don't care about his policies {positive or negative}.

That will make it very difficult for you to understand why people support him then.

drguitar wrote:But your response seems extremely naive about Trump's lack of honesty and it's effects on political discourse.

Which Trump lies do you have a problem with? Can you give us an example of what you find so troubling? When Obama said, "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan", he was lying. People who lost their plans cared about that because it materially affected their lives. Whether Sadiq Khan is a "stone cold loser" doesn't really affect anyone's lives.

fokker wrote:It is very easy to defeat Trump - remove some of the reasons people vote for him - be tougher on illegal immigration, stop pushing LGBT agenda, protect American jobs.

What the establishment is trying to do is maintain their policy positions and regain power by undermining support for Trump. What they are not understanding is that they are basically hated by the masses now. It's really quite amazing.

Godstud wrote:China isn't constantly at war with anyone<cough USA> so please, leave your high and mighty morality at home. It's tiresome BS. :roll:

I'm sure a lot of Tibetans would disagree. China is largely at war with its own people. Think Xinjiang.

Godstud wrote:His lies about the media

Clearly you don't find that funny, but his supporters do.

Godstud wrote:The divisiveness seen in US politics is a direct cause of Trump and his lies.

Divide and conquer is a political strategy.

Godstud wrote:since no one here has made a comment about Trump's morality. :knife:

The OP did.

Godstud wrote:Why not simply accept that Trump lies more than most politicians and explain why you still love him, despite that?

Tax cuts, enforcing immigration laws, and slapping tariffs on China among other things. I also love that he insults the media and his political detractors. I loath political correctness, so I relish his politically incorrect tropes.

Godstud wrote:Trump supporters don't seem to care that he lies, and even consistently deny that he does, or try to pretend that trump is joking, in order to make the lies more appetizing.

It's been explained. drguitar says specifically he doesn't care about policies. Fine. Everybody is accustomed to politicians lying. If you want to understand why people support Trump in spite of him "lying", you need to understand the things that matter to people--like immigration, trade, taxes, conservative moral issues, etc. Evangelical Christians support Trump overwhelmingly, yet he is not an evangelical Christian. Why? He addresses their issues--like court appointments. In their view, because of things like court appointments, he's the best president of their lifetimes--even better than Ronald Reagan.

drguitar wrote:The sheer quantity and absurdity of his lying is mind boggling.

It's intended to be. It's intended to make his supporters laugh and his detractors frazzled.

late wrote:Doing that does enormous damage to the country, and frankly, it's batshit crazy.

Some people, like me, want to do enormous damage to the establishment.

drguitar wrote:Saying things that others don't like JUST BECAUSE you know they won't like it is being an obnoxious ass. And likewise Trolling people has nothing to do with the Freedom of Speech with the single exception that you have the right to be an obnoxious ass in public. If that is how you would like to be known, enjoy your future; it's looking bleak.

It got Trump elected president of the United States. I suppose you could call that bleak, but there are a lot of people vying for that job. I'm sure Donald Trump knew that Rosie O'Donnell would not like being called a "fat pig" and "disgusting." Does that make him an obnoxious ass? Yes. However, Rosie O'Donnell is a pretty vulgar person herself; yet, gets kudos from the leftist media for attacking conservatives. So when Trump hits back, is it obnoxious? Sure. However, his supporters find it funny. In those instances, they also find it true. Yes, we know that Rosie O'Donnell is not actually a pig, but a human being. We don't need that pointed out to us.

Pants-of-dog wrote:First of all, Trump actually receives no punishment for lying.

Lying isn't a crime unless under oath and thereby perjury.

late wrote:But Putin approves.

:roll: Do you realize that most Trump supporters are not afraid of Putin?
By Patrickov
#15061260
blackjack21 wrote:I'm sure a lot of Tibetans would disagree. China is largely at war with its own people. Think Xinjiang.


And Hong Kong. And Taiwan. And Wuhan. Actually, pretty much everyone, including themselves.
User avatar
By drguitar
#15061261
BigSteve wrote:I believe he's honest.

Patrickov, you answered that you believe Trump's actions speak louder than words. But you never said that you were okay with his constant lying.

So are you saying that you are okay with him lying all the time as long as his actions line up with your political view? Or are you saying that honesty does not need to be part of a person's moral compass? Or something else entirely?

If the second choice above is what you believe, how can our Allies work with someone they cannot trust at their word.

There was a time, not long ago, when a person's word was their bond. Some of us still believe in those words.
By late
#15061262
blackjack21 wrote:

Some people, like me, want to do enormous damage to the establishment.




The end result will be enormous damage to the country.

Putin approves.
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