Propaganda works - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By late
#15065612
"The story that unfurled in my Facebook feed over the next several weeks was, at times, disorienting. There were days when I would watch, live on TV, an impeachment hearing filled with damning testimony about the president’s conduct, only to look at my phone later and find a slickly edited video—served up by the Trump campaign—that used out-of-context clips to recast the same testimony as an exoneration.

I was surprised by the effect it had on me. I’d assumed that my skepticism and media literacy would inoculate me against such distortions. But I soon found myself reflexively questioning every headline. It wasn’t that I believed Trump and his boosters were telling the truth. It was that, in this state of heightened suspicion, truth itself—about Ukraine, impeachment, or anything else—felt more and more difficult to locate. With each swipe, the notion of observable reality drifted further out of reach.

What I was seeing was a strategy that has been deployed by illiberal political leaders around the world. Rather than shutting down dissenting voices, these leaders have learned to harness the democratizing power of social media for their own purposes...

After the 2016 election, much was made of the threats posed to American democracy by foreign disinformation. Stories of Russian troll farms and Macedonian fake-news mills loomed in the national imagination. But while these shadowy outside forces preoccupied politicians and journalists, Trump and his domestic allies were beginning to adopt the same tactics of information warfare that have kept the world’s demagogues and strongmen in power.

The Trump campaign is planning to spend more than $1 billion, and it will be aided by a vast coalition of partisan media, outside political groups, and enterprising freelance operatives...Whether or not it succeeds in reelecting the president, the wreckage it leaves behind could be irreparable."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-2020-disinformation-war/605530/
User avatar
By Rancid
#15065613
late wrote:a vast coalition of partisan media, outside political groups, and enterprising freelance operatives...


Newbie, This won't be unique to the Trump campaign.
#15065614
Rancid wrote:Newbie, This won't be unique to the Trump campaign.


all major news channels except fox news are pro democrat and this guy come here and complaining about partisan republican media
is he retarded or completely ignorant?
By late
#15065616
Rancid wrote:
This won't be unique to the Trump campaign.



In scale and sophistication, nothing like this has ever been done before.

"Unlike the bootstrap operation that first got Trump elected—with its motley band of B-teamers toiling in an unfinished space in Trump Tower—his 2020 enterprise is heavily funded, technologically sophisticated, and staffed with dozens of experienced operatives. One Republican strategist referred to it, admiringly, as “the Death Star.”
#15065619
late wrote:In scale and sophistication, nothing like this has ever been done before.


it was all done in 2016 for Hillary to win

all of the MSM (except fox news) and hollywood elites rallied around Hillary
and she still lost :lol:
By Hindsite
#15065630
Zionist Nationalist wrote:it was all done in 2016 for Hillary to win

all of the MSM (except fox news) and hollywood elites rallied around Hillary
and she still lost :lol:

Hillary was a bad candidate. It was also done for Barrack Obama before that and he did win.
By Patrickov
#15065684
Everyone does propaganda.

In my opinion, the OP is himself engaging in anti-Trump propaganda.

And sometimes I myself commit anti-Chinese propaganda as well.

Even for statements based 100% on facts, if they are added with sensational comments, and or they aim to (or in extreme cases, have an effect of) fueling up people's emotions in a certain direction, they are still propaganda. (Edit: Some propaganda do not engage in emotional appeal)


That said, I do not agree that propaganda works. Sometimes it only results in more resistance to what it's intended to promote, even if people know it is right.

The key to propaganda is, as always, say what the target audience want to hear.
By Patrickov
#15065698
jimjam wrote:Image


Seriously, the practice of socialism elsewhere in the world exactly showed the importance of keeping public power in bay.

I do not deny many (or even most) of what they advocate are helpful, but some of them can be abused into something else (mostly power abuse) that advocates often fail to address.

In effect, this is yet another propaganda -- just in a different direction. Although I have to say propaganda is more neutral than most of us (myself included) believe.
By foxdemon
#15065726
Patrickov wrote:Seriously, the practice of socialism elsewhere in the world exactly showed the importance of keeping public power in bay.

I do not deny many (or even most) of what they advocate are helpful, but some of them can be abused into something else (mostly power abuse) that advocates often fail to address.

In effect, this is yet another propaganda -- just in a different direction. Although I have to say propaganda is more neutral than most of us (myself included) believe.



I think that is propaganda because it is misrepresenting Truman’s position. He was railing against conservatives always claiming his policies were socialist rather than him claiming socialism was a good idea. Keysianism is not socialism.

Actually, Truman was well aware of the threat of communism:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/truman-warns-of-cold-war-dangers

So it is plainly propaganda for Bernie and Resistance ( socialist organisation) to claim Truman was one of them.
By late
#15065746
Patrickov wrote:
In effect, this is yet another propaganda -- just in a different direction. Although I have to say propaganda is more neutral than most of us (myself included) believe.



It's not wrong. Which means it's advocacy, not propaganda...
By Patrickov
#15065747
late wrote:It's not wrong. Which means it's advocacy, not propaganda...


It is propaganda because it does not present the whole truth and such an omission serves a purpose or agenda.

Sincerely, nothing can be done if one treats propaganda like toxin.

The problem is whether one relies on propaganda instead of actual work to appeal people.
Last edited by Patrickov on 09 Feb 2020 11:01, edited 1 time in total.
By late
#15065748
foxdemon wrote:
I think that is propaganda because it is misrepresenting Truman’s position. He was railing against conservatives always claiming his policies were socialist rather than him claiming socialism was a good idea. Keysianism is not socialism.

Actually, Truman was well aware of the threat of communism:


So it is plainly propaganda for Bernie and Resistance ( socialist organisation) to claim Truman was one of them.



These days, when people say Socialist, they usually refer to nations with robust social programs, like Denmark or Norway.

So your implied equivalence between socialism and communism is propaganda. Actually, it's really old, really stupid propaganda...

In Europe, Bernie would be smack dab in the middle of the road, a centrist.

But if you want to look at radicals, look at Trump and his supporters.
By Patrickov
#15065750
late wrote:These days, when people say Socialist, they usually refer to nations with robust social programs, like Denmark or Norway.


China, North Korea also proclaim themselves in the socialism stage (instead of communism). If socialism is to be used exclusively on Denmark / Norway then a new term may be needed to term China and North Korea.
By late
#15065754
Patrickov wrote:
China, North Korea also proclaim themselves in the socialism stage (instead of communism). If socialism is to be used exclusively on Denmark / Norway then a new term may be needed to term China and North Korea.



NK has a totalitarian dictator. It's the Cult of Personality Trump wants to do here.

China is an oddball, truly. It still has the same bureaucracy it had when it called itself Communist. It still has a lot of the things you expect within such an arrangement, like a nonconvertible currency.

At the same time, it has embraced capitalism, but not completely.

And Xi just made himself the autocratic ruler, if not an outright dictator.

We have problems with sloppiness. There is no precise definition for Socialism. Right wing types keep trying to conflate autocratic bureaucracies (like the former USSR) with capitalist countries that dare to treat their people decently, like Denmark.

At the next level deeper, we lack the language to make clear distinctions concerning power structures. There are more varieties than words to categorise them.

But I have a simple rule of thumb to paper over the messiness. The more power is concentrated in the hands of a few, the worse off the people are.

Behind my harping on Income Inequality is that exact concern, that in America, the number of people with power is shrinking fast.
By Patrickov
#15065758
late wrote:It's the Cult of Personality Trump wants to do here.


The Second Amendment will make it VERY difficult, unless groups like NRA decides to take on the role similar to the Sepâh.
By late
#15065793
Patrickov wrote:
The Second Amendment will make it VERY difficult, unless groups like NRA decides to take on the role similar to the Sepâh.



Militias were a joke when George Washington was president, it's why he switched.

Most of the institutions that could oppose him have been degraded.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15065801
Patrickov wrote:Everyone does propaganda.

In my opinion, the OP is himself engaging in anti-Trump propaganda.

And sometimes I myself commit anti-Chinese propaganda as well.

Even for statements based 100% on facts, if they are added with sensational comments, and or they aim to (or in extreme cases, have an effect of) fueling up people's emotions in a certain direction, they are still propaganda. (Edit: Some propaganda do not engage in emotional appeal)

Propaganda can be either truthful or deceitful. Its truth-value is not what defines it as 'propaganda'. Propaganda is simply any attempt to influence the way people think and/or feel about a given topic. This is more widespread than most people think. For example, introducing a scientific opinion with the phrase "Most scientists agree that..." instantly makes what follows a form of propaganda.

That said, I do not agree that propaganda works. Sometimes it only results in more resistance to what it's intended to promote, even if people know it is right.

The key to propaganda is, as always, say what the target audience want to hear.

Or, better yet, induce the audience to spread the propaganda themselves - once the audience for the propaganda is invested in the propaganda themselves, once they 'own' that propaganda, then they will no longer perceive it as propaganda but just as "what everyone knows". The Americans are very good at this sort of propaganda, whereas the Russians and the Chinese tend to be very bad at it.
User avatar
By Tainari88
#15065806
Potemkin wrote:Propaganda can be either truthful or deceitful. Its truth-value is not what defines it as 'propaganda'. Propaganda is simply any attempt to influence the way people think and/or feel about a given topic. This is more widespread than most people think. For example, introducing a scientific opinion with the phrase "Most scientists agree that..." instantly makes what follows a form of propaganda.


Or, better yet, induce the audience to spread the propaganda themselves - once the audience for the propaganda is invested in the propaganda themselves, once they 'own' that propaganda, then they will no longer perceive it as propaganda but just as "what everyone knows". The Americans are very good at this sort of propaganda, whereas the Russians and the Chinese tend to be very bad at it.



I got a theory about why the Russians and the Chinese are bad at that type of propaganda of éveryone knows crap....My theory is that the Chinese and the Russians are pragmatic and old cultures, in which their national histories have included, invasions by foreign armies, masses of dead people either starving to death or being killed outright....and very old rooted cultures where class consciousness and conflict of classes has brought about compromise and as such? The average Chinese or Russian citizen rarely displays pollyanna sanitized versions of what people know....as 'truth'. While the Americans suck at identifying bad propaganda that is sanitized because they are a nation used to having the white liberal or white conservative elements feed them shit for history and they fall for it because they are used to being in a dominant position and never had to experience the 'fire' of defeats by fascist or extremely right wing invasions...

My theory on that one.
By late
#15065807
Potemkin wrote:
Propaganda can be either truthful or deceitful. Its truth-value is not what defines it as 'propaganda'. Propaganda is simply any attempt to influence the way people think and/or feel about a given topic. This is more widespread than most people think. For example, introducing a scientific opinion with the phrase "Most scientists agree that..." instantly makes what follows a form of propaganda.


Or, better yet, induce the audience to spread the propaganda themselves - once the audience for the propaganda is invested in the propaganda themselves, once they 'own' that propaganda, then they will no longer perceive it as propaganda but just as "what everyone knows". The Americans are very good at this sort of propaganda, whereas the Russians and the Chinese tend to be very bad at it.



prop·a·gan·da
/ˌpräpəˈɡandə/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

1.
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

....................................................................................................

Bias is inevitable, everyone has bias. In this case, they mean extreme, a bias not held by the intended audience.

Mostly, propaganda is a form of lying.

You mentioned science. The sciences that are involved in climate change reached consensus over 20 years ago. Subsequent changes have only reinforced what was obvious 30 years, and found 40 years ago.

So when the Climate Deniers babble, they are either pro, or nuttier than a hundred fruitcakes.

You still need to provide a distinction between the normal advocacy that is the lifeblood of democracy; and propaganda pushed with malign intent.

"The intent makes the crime."

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