" Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response" - Page 162 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15095457
Drlee wrote:Trump is going to win in November.


As a non-American it is incomprehensible to me that a character like Trump should be elected to any position of responsibility, let alone to the position of US president. It is incomprehensible that he didn't resign, or at the very least be impeached for the innumerable failings he is guilty of. Now, that he should even be reelected .... :knife: surely that cannot be, not at a time 200,000 to 300,000 Americans will have died because of his mismanagement of the pandemic and not at a time the US may experience the worst economic crisis since the great depression.

If that were to happen, you are certainly well advised to emigrate. Your friend made the right decision. I don't live far from Lagos, even though I prefer the sparsely populated rolling hills of the Alentejo, but the Algarve does have better health services. The EU gives you border-less travel for the whole of Europe and the richest and most diverse cultural environment on the planet.
#15095490
Atlantis wrote:As a non-American it is incomprehensible to me that a character like Trump should be elected to any position of responsibility, ...


Putting aside my observation that many people actually view his foreign policy in positive light (e.g. my family believe some Democrats have been too tangled with Chinese benefits. What I perceive is: saying Obama, Sanders or Pelosi being that would be a stretch. The accused are probably Clinton, or those more silent ones who got the real strings), ...

I think it's not about Trump being popular (he's apparently not), it's the voters' hatred or indifference to other candidates.

For the United States case, it is still something solvable with solidarity, only that in this case geographical influence also needs to be considered.

In some sense, the electoral vote system punishes candidates who confine themselves geographically. Trump somewhat succeeded what Mao Zedong did: Encircle the cities from the rural (or in 2016's case, "rusty") areas.
#15095505
@Patrickov I think it's not about Trump being popular (he's apparently not), it's the voters' hatred or indifference to other candidate


This is how he won. He put together a group of angry one issue voters and gave voice to their prejudices, religious fervor, or paranoia. The bogey man is "liberals". "Liberals" are everyone who disagrees with whatever single issue gets up one's nose. Gun control? "Liberals". Abortion? "Liberals". Anti-racism? "Liberals". And this coalition is not of very smart or discerning people. Because Trump is not constrained by any notion of the truth he is free to gather these people to his "cause". I will guarantee you Patrickov that these folks will not know or even care to know that Trump has been entirely for the wealthy and has harmed the middle class perhaps beyond repair.

I hope Doc X is correct and that there is this underlying dissatisfaction that will take down Trump's coalition. I am not so sanguine about it as he his. Nevertheless, unless the republican senate goes down too the change in the presidency will not matter at all. McConnell will simply refuse to confirm a single judge and will block all meaningful legislation with the idea in mind of electing a republican the next time after the democrats have taken the blame for the economy and failure to govern.

If the democrats hold the house and achieve the presidency they have one chance and one chance only. That is to put forward programs so popular with the middle and working classes that the republicans dare not oppose them. That won't happen. The democrats can't agree on what to have for lunch not to mention sweeping social re-engineering.
#15095507
Drlee wrote:The democrats can't agree on what to have for lunch not to mention sweeping social re-engineering.


I am afraid this is quite an example of "failure to govern" (sic).


(The following is the result of several edits)

In contrast, what Trump or the background masters do may be recognised by some as downright evil.

And then there are some people who seem to "prefer evil over incompetence", which, as I observe, is a tendency some PoFo members (including myself) have from time to time.
#15095531
Drlee wrote:This is how he won. He put together a group of angry one issue voters and gave voice to their prejudices, religious fervor, or paranoia. The bogey man is "liberals". "Liberals" are everyone who disagrees with whatever single issue gets up one's nose. Gun control? "Liberals". Abortion? "Liberals". Anti-racism? "Liberals". And this coalition is not of very smart or discerning people. Because Trump is not constrained by any notion of the truth he is free to gather these people to his "cause". I will guarantee you Patrickov that these folks will not know or even care to know that Trump has been entirely for the wealthy and has harmed the middle class perhaps beyond repair.

That is certainly part of the reason but not it's totality. For decades now, both sides, but Republicans, in particular, have embraced the US vs THEM kind of mentality, the team unity behavior where if you belong to my team you are supposed to go out there and blindly follow. Also, there is the vilification of the other group.
Take for instance my grandmother, if you sit with her and discuss for a few hours about social politics, you will realize that her views are totally incompatible with republicans. She is not religious, she does not have any fierce opposition to abortion or gays, etc. So in terms of values she certainly does not have a reason to align for republicans. However, she still voted for Trump. She is one of those that saw him as a repugnant joke when he was doing the primaries but then voted for him offering the excuse "Clinton was worse" which is a shit excuse, especially because it looks like she is going to vote for him again even though Clinton is not in the ballot anymore.
In her case, I think it is a case of Helsinki syndrome. Her husband was a long-time republican supposedly because republicans were the ones against Castro and some bizarre idea that democrats are communists, which offcourse is nonsense. So, unfortunately, you get pockets of people that completely hate everything that republicans stand for, yet still, vote for them out of a nonsensical fear. I don't know how many people vote for the same bad reasons than my grandmother, but I suspect the number is non-insignificant.
#15095538
XogGyux wrote:... democrats are communists, which of course is nonsense.


It is nonsense because it over-simplifies the problem.

IMHO this might be more accurate: "Democrats are prone to be influenced by Communists, because Democrats opt for peace and through their ideals they have less caution against possible deceit".
#15095541
XogGyux wrote: In her case, I think it is a case of Helsinki syndrome.


Stockholm syndrome, Xog. Named after a failed bank robbery that took place in 1973 Stockholm, where the hostages formed a bond with the hostage takers and defended the bank robbers even after being rescued.

Sorry, couldn't let the Finns have this one. They already have perfect Corona-response and superior education system. They can't have this! :lol:
#15095542
Patrickov wrote:I am afraid this is quite an example of "failure to govern" (sic).


This is largely a myth.
Don't confuse the real intricacies of decision making and bureaucracy, which certainly do deserve a degree of criticism, with a some "failure to govern".
I am not that old but I have lived through 2 democratic and 2 republican administrations and despite the small sample size, it is quite obvious to me which ones are the failures.
Two of the largest economic downturns in the last century will end up occurring during these republicans that keep trying to sell their snake oil "trickle down" economics nonsense, 911, covid 19... So no, failure to govern belongs to the republicans.
#15095543
MadMonk wrote:Stockholm syndrome, Xog. Named after a failed bank robbery that took place in 1973 Stockholm, where the hostages formed a bond with the hostage takers and defended the bank robbers even after being rescued.

Sorry, couldn't let the Finns have this one. They already have perfect Corona-response and superior education system. They can't have this! :lol:


My dyslexia got the better of me =) I even googled it and got the wrong answer haha! thank you.
#15095548
XogGyux wrote:This is largely a myth.

Don't confuse the real intricacies of decision making and bureaucracy, which certainly do deserve a degree of criticism, with a some "failure to govern".


It can be said as a "wrong deduction", but that's not what I perceive a "myth" is.

And as I said, I perceive "failure to govern" as a non-malicious problem. Republicans are, at least from you guys' mouth, malicious, so I would brand them as "evil" instead. In fact, by seeing many of their supporters resembling CCP supporters in manners, speech and mindset, one may argue that the Republican Party has become as evil as CCP.
#15095555
Patrickov wrote:It is nonsense because it over-simplifies the problem.


It is not nonsense. An oversimplification? of course. It is an oversimplification due to the limitations of having to put a thought into a few sentences long for a forum post. Of course this is a complex topic that could an encyclopedia's worth of US politics.

IMHO this might be more accurate: "Democrats are prone to be influenced by Communists, because Democrats opt for peace and through their ideals they have less caution against possible deceit".

You fell for that propaganda. Even if we take the "extreme" of the "democratic party" (since bernie is Independent) and consider bernie, warren, AOC, etc... these people are not particularly extreme or even leftists when you put them in contrast with the rest of the civilized world. GL trying to argue that Canada, UK, Germany, France, Japan and a myriad of other countries are some sort of "communist".
They all subscribe to Capitalism, Bernie and Warren are both millionaires, they took advantage and embraced the capitalist system (and by taking advantage I am not suggesting anything nefarious. They are both well educated with great paying jobs and have made books that give them a lot of money.
So while I can recognize that this is the picture that the republicans want to paint ("democrats are communists") this is largely nonsense misleading bullcrap.
#15095569
Trump encourages police brutality like every fascist dictator in the world.



I think the problem is bigger than Trump. Even if he loses, there are all those who condone this sort of mentality. Future presidents won't be able to ignore them.

Beside the baseness of the creature Trump, what strikes me most is how he can rule by decree. It's almost as if there is no parliament, no government and as if the other institutions of the state are being gradually eroded.

America can't be fixed unless it introduces a true multi-party parliamentary system with proportional representation in which the powers of the president are limited. It's not normal that the president should be able to start an international conflict at his whim and without any democratic oversight.

Oh yes, and everybody should be able to run for presidency irrespective of wealth. Campaign costs should be refunded by the treasury and donations should be limited and transparent. Otherwise democracy is just a farce.
#15095581
XogGyux wrote:It is not nonsense. An oversimplification? of course. It is an oversimplification due to the limitations of having to put a thought into a few sentences long for a forum post. Of course this is a complex topic that could an encyclopedia's worth of US politics.


I meant I agree with your comment that the statement "Democrats are Communists" is nonsense, and gave my reason.

Please advise if the way I quoted that message was taking it out of context.


XogGyux wrote:You fell for that propaganda. Even if we take the "extreme" of the "democratic party" (since bernie is Independent) and consider bernie, warren, AOC, etc... these people are not particularly extreme or even leftists when you put them in contrast with the rest of the civilized world. GL trying to argue that Canada, UK, Germany, France, Japan and a myriad of other countries are some sort of "communist".

They all subscribe to Capitalism, Bernie and Warren are both millionaires, they took advantage and embraced the capitalist system (and by taking advantage I am not suggesting anything nefarious. They are both well educated with great paying jobs and have made books that give them a lot of money.
So while I can recognize that this is the picture that the republicans want to paint ("democrats are communists") this is largely nonsense misleading bullcrap.


Again, worrying or even believing them being influenced by Communists (or specifically, China) is very different from suggesting they are Communists themselves. And such view is from my family, who have little if any access to Republican media (or any American media in that regard) so it is a stretch to suggest they or I "fell for that propaganda".
#15098328
Atlantis wrote:Anybody could have seen the warning. In fact, there were plenty of warnings even in this forum ever since Wuhan locked down January.

Trump could have seen the warning if he wasn't such a self-obsessed narcissist. People like Trump will never learn. Even now, he continues to ignore the warnings about the second wave which is bound to arrive if the US even contemplates ending the lockdown while daily new infections are at such a high level.

If he had been faster and less narcissistic, what would he have done? Gotten himself elected as president of Vietnam so he could boast about that country's low deathrate (from this particular virus) rather than taking the blame for what a badly governed mess (and pariah) the USA has been for most of its history?
#15098379
QatzelOk wrote:If he had been faster and less narcissistic, what would he have done? Gotten himself elected as president of Vietnam so he could boast about that country's low deathrate (from this particular virus) rather than taking the blame for what a badly governed mess (and pariah) the USA has been for most of its history?


The US has had presidents who defended the US's interests even if you and I may not agree with the validity of these interests. By mounting a timely Covid response, Trump could have saved many lives in America and abroad and substantially reduces the economic hardship.
#15098407
Atlantis wrote:The US has had presidents who defended the US's interests even if you and I may not agree with the validity of these interests. By mounting a timely Covid response, Trump could have saved many lives in America and abroad and substantially reduces the economic hardship.

President Trump responded quicker than anyone else would have when he banned flights coming in from China. At the time, even the medical experts were saying that was not necessary, but later Dr. Fauci said that was a good move and saved many lives. With the exception of that one disagreement, President Trump followed all the advice of the medical experts in issuing the guidelines for the public and all states to follow. When asked for help from the governors, he quickly made sure that help was given.

Then a point came when President Trump saw that a prolonged lock down was not sustainable and the people need to be allowed to reopen their businesses so all the people could go back to work. Sure anyone can make criticisms in hindsight, but I am sure no Democrat of Republican would have acted earlier, because they were all saying the opposite.
#15098416
@Hindsite, you forgot to praise the lord. ;)

This is getting tiresome. How often do we have to explain that the travel ban was useless or even counterproductive since it distracted from the containment measures that should have been implemented in the US. There was already community transmission in the US in January and the virus was imported from numerous places outside the PRC.
#15098428
Atlantis wrote:@Hindsite, you forgot to praise the lord. ;)

This is getting tiresome. How often do we have to explain that the travel ban was useless or even counterproductive since it distracted from the containment measures that should have been implemented in the US. There was already community transmission in the US in January and the virus was imported from numerous places outside the PRC.

From Timeline of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States

The first recorded case of the virus on January 20 was an American citizen traveling from Wuhan, China, to his home in Washington state. President Trump was only made aware of that one case by January 22, so he was not that concerned about it and neither were any other political leaders. Two more cases were confirmed on January 26, similarly by two people who had returned from Wuhan. All cases to this point were allowed to self-isolate at home for two weeks, where after they were assumed to be no longer infected or contagious.

On January 29, President Trump announced the creation of a White House Coronavirus Task Force in the State Department to coordinate and oversees the Administration's efforts to monitor, prevent, contain, and mitigate the spread of the coronavirus disease.

On January 30, the first case of person-to-person transmission was confirmed in Chicago, between a married couple, after the wife returned from China.

On January 30, the WHO named the coronavirus outbreak that originated in Wuhan, China, a Public Health Emergency of International Concern, warning that "all countries should be prepared for containment, including active surveillance, early detection, isolation and case management, contact tracing and prevention of onward spread".

On January 31, another case of a person who returned from Wuhan was confirmed in California, which marked the seventh known case in the U.S.

On January 31, the Trump Administration, through the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, declared a public health emergency, and imposed a mandatory 14-day quarantine for any U.S. citizens who has visited Hubei Province in China within the preceding two weeks. It also began denying entry of non-U.S. nationals who had traveled to China within the preceding two weeks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ted_States

So the travel ban was no distraction from the containment measures because the WHO had not announced the virus to be a Public Health Emergency of International Concern or warning that "all countries should be prepared for containment until January 30. According to Dr. Fauci that travel ban saved many lives.

I know you get most of your complaint from sources that hate President Trump and will never give him a fair review. President Trump did not keep out any American citizen from coming back into their own country because he did not believe that was right. And based on what he knew at the time, he acted quickly.
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