[Drlee]

So here is the brain trust on the right:

Serious question I would like to hear an answer to (yeah right), protestors in places like Portland and Seattle keep trying to burn down federal buildings because orange man bad. Should they be allowed to do this? Because if the feds stop arresting them that's what will happen, those buildings would get burned down.

Stupid question. This is not happening in the first place.

@Julian658
Most of the BLM rioters in Portland are white Antifa incel type young men and women. The riots have NOTHING to do with BLM.

And this is more nonsense. Nice Fox News buzz words though. Trump's typical unintelligent followers will eat this up. Smart people, not so much.

But here is the election.

[Julian658]

And this is more nonsense. Nice Fox News buzz words though. Trump's typical unintelligent followers will eat this up. Smart people, not so much.

But here is the election.

For God's sake! Look at the videos! The Portland riot is mostly a white riot! Blacks are a small minority among the protestors.

[Drlee]

For God's sake! Look at the videos! The Portland riot is mostly a white riot! Blacks are a small minority among the protestors.

Wrong again. It is not mostly a riot at all. There is very little rioting and much of that, as we learn from the news today, a false flag operation by white supremacists. And, of course, it is impossible for the white majority to be concerned about issues important to the black community.

[Wulfschilde]

Yes, that's why I effectively said the left is guilty of this stupid shit too. Basically, they are taking a reasonable cause (police abuse and reform) and then wrapping it with their own bat shit crazy and unfocused ideas that have nothing to do with the original cause.

I agree that this has been hijacked by mostly white and young dummies. I'm sure most of them have God complexes. Many young people do.

You are way deep into this fallacy of the middle stuff. There has never been any good evidence that police injure or kill black men disproportionately, if anything, the evidence makes it clear that they bend over backwards in order to avoid doing so.

Anyway, here's the daily antifa arrest lol:

[Julian658]

Wrong again. It is not mostly a riot at all. There is very little rioting and much of that, as we learn from the news today, a false flag operation by white supremacists. And, of course, it is impossible for the white majority to be concerned about issues important to the black community.

Little rioting is a bit like being a little pregnant.
Doc, do not defend violence. Leave your echo chamber!

[Rancid]

There has never been any good evidence that police injure or kill black men disproportionately

The stats certainly do bare this. That said, let's just say it's not true for the moment.

Still, the police still need reform, and police culture needs to change. They currently have a culture of "catching the bad guys, and punishing people". Their job is not to pass judgement (by assuming everyone they interact with is a bad guy), nor are they supposed to punish people (the courts do that).

The police should be a part of communities, not an overhanging entity of force that hands out punishment. I mean hell, they often use the punisher skull symbol. They have the totally wrong mentality, and that needs to change regardless of whatever you want to believe is false.

As I said, we should see cops helping people with breakdowns on the side of the road, than handing out tickets (most of which can be given out via mail).


Regardless of the data, if you don't think the cops should be held to a much higher standard, then you're a jackass.

[Wulfschilde]

The stats certainly do bare this. That said, let's just say it's not true for the moment.

Still, the police still need reform, and police culture needs to change. They currently have a culture of "catching the bad guys, and punishing people". Their job is not to pass judgement (by assuming everyone they interact with is a bad guy), nor are they supposed to punish people (the courts do that).

The police should be a part of communities, not an overhanging entity of force that hands out punishment. I mean hell, they often use the punisher skull symbol. They have the totally wrong mentality, and that needs to change regardless of whatever you want to believe is false.

As I said, we should see cops helping people with breakdowns on the side of the road, than handing out tickets (most of which can be given out via mail).


Regardless of the data, if you don't think the cops should be held to a much higher standard, then you're a jackass.

I don't think you have a realistic grasp of the situation. To begin with, most of the "defund the police" proponents want the police to stop handing things like domestic disputes because those are a common category of situations wherein things can escalate and the police end up fighting someone. They want to create classes of social workers that will address such things. So maybe you are not on the same page as them but what you've written here is irrelevant to most of this movement because they don't want police handling that stuff at all.

Second, I don't think that "culture" is something that gets decided from the top down very often. It's something that develops for a reason. Sure, we can say that the cops shouldn't see themselves as being in the business of "catching bad guys" but that's presumably what 90% (at least) of the people who become cops imagined themselves doing when they were kids. Then, this mentality is presumably reinforced in some locations by the actual reality of doing the job. I think it's a tall order for outsiders to suddenly tell a profession how they should think of or view themselves.

For example, if you work in technology, I think you should view yourself as being in the business of helping me shitpost because that is the mental state that I subjectively would feel most comfortable with you having. Exactly how your job really works doesn't interest me. Why should we attempt to tell people how they should view themselves?

Third, people post the statistics about how many unarmed black people vs. unarmed white people get killed by the cops. It's abundantly clear that the cops are going out of their way to avoid killing unarmed black people. Have you never heard this before or would you want to compare some sources?

[Rancid]

Pretty sure I have a good grasp of the situation. You seem to forget or gloss over the fact that I've actually agreed with you on many things.

but that's presumably what 90% (at least) of the people who become cops imagined themselves doing when they were kids.

Those expectations need to be adjusted as they grow up and actually become cops and go to police academy. Simple.

[Wulfschilde]

Pretty sure I have a good grasp of the situation. You seem to forget or gloss over the fact that I've actually agreed with you on many things.


Those expectations need to be adjusted as they grow up and actually become cops and go to police academy. Simple.

I dunno, maybe you missed my edit. How exactly is one group of people supposed to tell another group of people how they should view themselves? Don't you think their actual experiences would be the biggest determinating factor there?

[Julian658]

There will be much more rioting?
Isn't the whole premise of Trump that he is the law and order president and that it is under Biden that the rioting will occur?
It is good to see that your subconscious betrays you.
I guess it is better that Trump doesn't win then, assuming you don't like riots.

To blame the riots, looting, and mayhem on Trump is a bit dishonest. Do not try silly demagogy in this forum; that only works with uninformed democrats. In a free country people have a right to protest.

[Rancid]

How exactly is one group of people supposed to tell another group of people how they should view themselves?

Really? You think it's not possible to change people's perceptions/attitudes so that they better fit the culture of an organization? Organizations and Corporations do this shit all the time.

This is why organizations setup the follow:
Establish a code of conduct and enforce it.
Develop a mission statement and promote/educate on it.
Develop a set of values that are expected.
Setup trainings/rules on how you are expected to carry yourself in different situations.

It's all done to establish a culture of how everyone is expected to behave and carry themselves. The police are no different.

Example:
You think the military doesn't establish its own culture? You really think it's just a hodge podge of the random people that join with their childhood perceptions of what the military is like? You really think military leadership just allows everyone to behave how they wish willy nilly? There's a reason you are "broken down" when you go to boot camp. It's to get you to align with the culture and values they want in the military. Military culture is designed a specific way, and maintained.

Companies do this too, you take trainings around how you are expected to carry business. Things like Ethics, security around company secrets, how people are expected to handle interpersonal issues, etc. (I take these trainings all the time). Company cultures are designed, created, and maintained by its leadership. Company leaders establish this, and enforce it.

So yes, culture can be applied/enforced top down at any organization. These organizations are not democracies. A company isn't a democracy, nor is the police force. Nor is the military, etc. etc.

[Wulfschilde]

Really? You think it's not possible to change people's perceptions/attitudes so that they better fit the culture of an organization? Organizations and Corporations do this shit all the time.

This is why organizations setup the follow:
Establish a code of conduct and enforce it.
Develop a mission statement and promote/educate on it.
Develop a set of values that are expected.

It's all specifically to establish a culture of how everyone is expected to behave and carry themselves.

Example:
You think the military doesn't establish its own culture? You really think it's just a hodge podge of the random people that join with their childhood perceptions of what the military? There's a reason you are "broken down" when you go to boot camp. It's to get you to align with the culture and values they want in the military. Military culture is designed a specific way, and maintained.

Companies do this too, you take trainings around how you are expected to carry business. Things like Ethics, security around company secrets, how people are expected to handle interpersonal issues. Company cultures are designed, created, and maintained.

I think it's extremely superficial. We can tell cops to view themselves as friends of the community and to specifically not view themselves as people who catch bad guys but when their job is going out and literally chasing down guys who are blatantly bad and catching them, I think many of them are going to view themselves as people who catch the bad guys. Making them go to seminars about how they aren't catching bad guys or something would be farcical and ultimately not just pointless but probably also counter-productive.

[Wulfschilde]

Also, sorry for nitpicking, but I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of boot camp too. The reason they try to break people down is to see if they can handle having someone trying to kill them. If they can't handle boot camp they probably can't handle that, or so has been my perception of that.

[Rancid]

I think it's extremely superficial. We can tell cops to view themselves as friends of the community and to specifically not view themselves as people who catch bad guys but when their job is going out and literally chasing down guys who are blatantly bad and catching them, I think many of them are going to view themselves as people who catch the bad guys. Making them go to seminars about how they aren't catching bad guys or something would be farcical and ultimately not just pointless but probably also counter-productive.

I agree 100%. It's not just about telling cops to change their attitude. It's also about changing fundamentally how cops operate.

Real simple ideas that help would help to change the culture:
- When they pull people over, they should not phish for bullshit. For example, every time I get pulled over, I'm given the 3rd degree:
"Where are yo going?", "Where did you come from?", "Where do you work?" What the fuck does that have to do with me rolling a stop sign? This creates a VERY soured taste and negative view of the police. Clearly they're fishing for shit. They need to stop the bullshit, and just give the fucking ticket.

- They shouldn't even be pulling people over, they have dash cams and radar, they can mail tickets anyway. This is safer for the police too, since many are killed in traffic stops. As I said, I we should be seeing cops helping people with breakdowns on the side of the road, more than anything else.

- They should focus promotions on people that engage in the community. Cops that interact with people, cops that get to know people, speak at schools, community events, etc. etc. Today, promotions are most given to "raiders". That is, people that train and participate in take downs/raids/etc.

- Being ex-military should not be a positive in the hiring process (it shouldn't be a negative either of course). Also, when ex-military is hired, they really need to be taught and expected to behace different than when they are in the military. You should not have the same attitude when you patrol hostile territory in a foreign country as when you drive around a neighborhood.

If a cop's reason to join the police force is "I want to catch the bad guys", then they are not a good fit. if their reason is to "Be a part of the community, and help the community." then they are a better fit.

Also, sorry for nitpicking, but I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of boot camp too. The reason they try to break people down is to see if they can handle having someone trying to kill them. If they can't handle boot camp they probably can't handle that, or so has been my perception of that.

I think that is certainly a part of it, but that's not all of it. Most military personnel are not going to become infantry (all my friends that were in the military only fired a gun in boot camp, and never anywhere else). Bootcamp is multi-purposed, but the main overhanging reason, is to get you to understand and line up with the culture of how a military operates. Which of course means to also test/train you on how to handle stress.

[XogGyux]

To blame the riots, looting, and mayhem on Trump is a bit dishonest. Do not try silly demagogy in this forum; that only works with uninformed democrats. In a free country people have a right to protest.

Really? You think this is too far? This is dishonest?
Tell me, under which other president of modern times have we had virtually country-wide civil unrest, protests and riots?
Under obama we had what Baltimore and Ferguson, under bush we had a few smaller ones in the 1990's we had LA, washington, las vegas...
Nothing in modern history comes close to what is happening under Trump, certainly not under the last couple decades.
However... you think blaming it on him is too far...
Who is the dishonest one... you claim that you don't like Trump everytime you get a chance yet you twist out of shape to defend him.
The irony... Trump blames Obama for coronavirus... something that didn't exist 4 years ago when Obama was president... yet... you think blaming the perils of our society that we are living under this president is a bit too far... a bit "dishonest".
Fuck off.

[Rancid]

Really? You think this is too far? This is dishonest?
Tell me, under which other president of modern times have we had virtually country-wide civil unrest, protests and riots?
Under obama we had what Baltimore and Ferguson, under bush we had a few smaller ones in the 1990's we had LA, washington, las vegas...
Nothing in modern history comes close to what is happening under Trump, certainly not under the last couple decades.
However... you think blaming it on him is too far...
Who is the dishonest one... you claim that you don't like Trump everytime you get a chance yet you twist out of shape to defend him.
The irony... Trump blames Obama for coronavirus... something that didn't exist 4 years ago when Obama was president... yet... you think blaming the perils of our society that we are living under this president is a bit too far... a bit "dishonest".
Fuck off.

I think the riots and protests would have happened even if we had Hillary as president. However, I suspect they might not be as angry, main because TRump certainly likes to throw gasoline on fires with his rhetoric.

[Wulfschilde]

I agree 100%. It's not just about telling cops to change their attitude. It's also about changing fundamentally how cops operate.

Real simple ideas that help would help to change the culture:
- When they pull people over, they should not phish for bullshit. For example, every time I get pulled over, I'm given the 3rd degree:
"Where are yo going?", "Where did you come from?", "Where do you work?" What the fuck does that have to do with me rolling a stop sign? This creates a VERY soured taste and negative view of the police. Clearly they're fishing for shit. They need to stop the bullshit, and just give the fucking ticket.

- They shouldn't even be pulling people over, they have dash cams and radar, they can mail tickets anyway. This is safer for the police too, since many are killed in traffic stops. As I said, I we should be seeing cops helping people with breakdowns on the side of the road, more than anything else.

- They should focus promotions on people that engage in the community. Cops that interact with people, cops that get to know people, speak at schools, community events, etc. etc. Today, promotions are most given to "raiders". That is, people that train and participate in take downs/raids/etc.

- Being ex-military should not be a positive in the hiring process (it shouldn't be a negative either of course). Also, when ex-military is hired, they really need to be taught and expected to behace different than when they are in the military. You should not have the same attitude when you patrol hostile territory in a foreign country as when you drive around a neighborhood.

If a cop's reason to join the police force is "I want to catch the bad guys", then they are not a good fit. if their reason is to "Be a part of the community, and help the community." then they are a better fit.




I think that is certainly a part of it, but that's not all of it. Most military personnel are not going to become infantry (all my friends that were in the military only fired a gun in boot camp, and never anywhere else). Bootcamp is multi-purposed, but the main overhanging reason, is to get you to understand and line up with the culture of how a military operates. Which of course means to also test/train you on how to handle stress.

1) What if they fish for shit because they want to see if your reasoning is solid, if it's not it could be a sign that you are intoxicated while driving, which is potentially very dangerous for other people? I have gotten the same thing from police and I have always assumed they are trying to see if I'm intoxicated, which is a valid thing to try and examine.

2) Not pulling people over would basically be to let intoxicated people drive however they want, right? Unless we set a bar for just how badly you can screw up while driving before they can pull you over. This is certainly possible but would probably get more people killed, just to make the police look a little better. Personally I don't like that approach.

3) Focusing promotions on different people, sure, whatever. A lot of it comes down to commercialism though. There is a fanbase for police raids, everything else is like D.A.R.E. or the police doggo.

4) Lots of ex-military guys have trouble getting normal jobs. But some of their training carries over to the police. Can't say I agree with you on this either, it sucks when a guy has been in the military and now he has to re-train for a completely different job, competing against people who are younger than him? And now he doesn't even get an advantage in trying to become a cop? That would really suck IMHO.

Not gonna like, I suspect you are focusing on a bunch of small and not very deeply thought out things because you want to look moderate on this issue because America is such a shit show right now.

[XogGyux]

I think the riots and protests would have happened even if we had Hillary as president. However, I suspect they might not be as angry, main because TRump certainly likes to throw gasoline on fires with his rhetoric.

That's valid, maybe. And if it had happened, it would have been Clinton's fault. We won't know.

Protests/riots are not new. They happened before but they were always contained. Something triggered this sort of reaction nationwide, thus nationwide "leaders" are responsible (instead of just local city/state leaders). It might be easy to dismiss it as a coronavirus issue rather than a Trump one... but coronavirus shit response is also Trump's fault... so you cannot scape 100%.

Anyhow... Boing fails, CEO is responsible. Even if he is not directly responsible for engineering a poorly functioning system that crashes planes. Likewise, the president is responsible for nation-wide unrest.

[Rancid]

1) What if they fish for shit because they want to see if your reasoning is solid, if it's not it could be a sign that you are intoxicated while driving, which is potentially very dangerous for other people? I have gotten the same thing from police and I have always assumed they are trying to see if I'm intoxicated, which is a valid thing to try and examine.

2) Not pulling people over would basically be to let intoxicated people drive however they want, right? Unless we set a bar for just how badly you can screw up while driving before they can pull you over. This is certainly possible but would probably get more people killed, just to make the police look a little better. Personally I don't like that approach.

3) Focusing promotions on different people, sure, whatever. A lot of it comes down to commercialism though. There is a fanbase for police raids, everything else is like D.A.R.E. or the police doggo.

4) Lots of ex-military guys have trouble getting normal jobs. But some of their training carries over to the police. Can't say I agree with you on this either, it sucks when a guy has been in the military and now he has to re-train for a completely different job, competing against people who are younger than him? And now he doesn't even get an advantage in trying to become a cop? That would really suck IMHO.

Not gonna like, I suspect you are focusing on a bunch of small and not very deeply thought out things because you want to look moderate on this issue because America is such a shit show right now.

1) Unacceptable to me. If you stop me, tell me what you are stopping me for, and give me the fucking ticket for that. If I'm suspected of being drunk, then they should stop me for that based on behaviors before they even pull me over. They should not go fishing for shit like that, unless they see open containers or small alcohol or whatever, that's more acceptable. The fishing thing again points to the attitude of presuming everyone is guilty of something so they just have to ferret it out of you. They simply shouldn't do this.

Side note: they also love to ask "You know why I stopped you?" fuck you shithead. You stopped me, you tell me why you stopped me. Stop it with the fucking games. They need to be transparent and forward, not play stupid psychological games.

2) Yes, some sort of bar would need to be set on how poor the driving is before they get pulled over. 10mph over the limit, not big deal. 40mph over, a big deal. Swerving around? Big deal. Guidance can be created. That said, I think we do need to give some wiggle room to cops, because guidance is just guidance, and the real world is tough. I'm willing ot give wiggle room on judgement calls like this, so long as they conduct themselves professionally (like stop it with the fucking fishing).

3) You're right, my response is, if you want to go on raids, the police is not the job for you.

4) Everyone in every industry deals with this problem. Why do we need to grant a special exception for ex-military? Again, I'm not saying ex-military cannot be hired to be cops, I'm just saying, that should not be seen a positive when hiring them. If they are hired they need to be re-trained, plain and simple. I get retrained on shit constantly at my jobs.

How is anything I've said "not thought out?" or "not deep?" I'm one of the few people that actually dives into subjects (mostly) objectively and tries to pick apart the details. Often, to the extremists on the forum, that makes you look "moderate", but really, it's just objectivity and critical thought. You cannot go deep without looking at the minutia of a topic. Minutia (the small things as you say) are often extremely important too. Frankly, all the bigger picture discussions on this thread haven't been very well thoughtout or insightful either.

You're fairly new here, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you don't know me.

[Wulfschilde]

Well, we have a very different mentality then. I don't care about getting stopped at all. There was this one time when I would get stopped routinely in a certain area because the cops had a drunk driving check there. They pulled me over half a dozen times but I was always sober so after jumping around on one leg for awhile they started to recognize me and let me go. I don't begrudge them for this at all, in fact one of the female cops was kind of hot and I tried to hit on her (didn't work).

I am fine with getting stopped and grilled if it finds out drunk drivers, just don't try to inject me with anything