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#15109946
Julian658 wrote:I am not so optimistic about the BLM/ANtifa alliance dying down. I bought two firearms to be ready to defend my home. I do not want looting in my neighborhood


I think they will die down. However, I understand your concern, as conservatives are more driven by pessimism than optimism. There is some early research that suggest this is the case. Scientists are starting to find that there is a "conservative" and a "liberal" gene. Of course, it doesn't mean you're locked in if you have one of those genes, but gene's play a role is the point. Anyway..... Let me explain why I disagree with you.



Step 1: There is a failure here because the message keeps changing. It started as an anti-police brutality message, but now there are all sorts of other unfocused messages attached to it. Is it reform the police? is it defund the police? is it abolish police? Why are there other messages mixed in like black trans lives matter (are trans people even unfairly targeted by police?)? All of this unfocused stuff and moral grand standing affects step 2. Where are the leaders and organizers to spear head and focus this change? Where are the great orators like MLK jr or Malcom X? Notice no strong BLACK leader and voice has emerged from this. It's all just white people chanting slowgans, forming Mom walls, etc. etc. It's all well meaning, but it simply won't sustain because there is no organization and no strong black voice behind it all.

Step 2: The spectrum is shrinking due to their unfocused step 1. Most reasonable people wanted to get on board to address policing (including myself). Now if you say you support BLM, you run the risk of getting things like "abolished the police" attached to you, even if you don't believe that. Some will say this is the conservatives doing this, and he conservative media, but I think the movement is doing it to itself. Hell, they are the one's that started saying "abolish the police" and got city councils on board. All of this has pushed people away. It's pushed me away. I'm all for reforming how policing is done. However, I'm not for defunding the police (most people aren't), so they've lost me, along with lots of other people. The moral grandstanding associated with all of this is also losing people. There's a strong "off with their heads" attitude in this movement (i.e. all the cancel culture stuff which is strongly correlated with white and young people in the protests). This too is off putting for regular people regardless of their ethnicity. There are already many black professors/thinkers that are against BLM (for similar and different reasons as my own). Their voices are getting louder. The movement is definitely losing black support.

Step 3:
They've identified the pillars of power to basically be everything under the sun. Again, unfocused.

Step 4:
Why is it that when I see photos of protests in my own city, it's like 95% white people? A few latinos (probably grew up around white people mostly believing that stupid LatinX bullshit), and like 1 token black person? As I said before, the movement is losing black support. Which is critical for change. I do believe Malcolm X was right, that black people cannot and should not rely on whitey to do things for them. It will not turn out well (just look at the ridiculous White Fragility book). They've certainly failed to attract the right people. They are certainly acting to overpower with messages like defund the police to whatever. Most normal people won't go along with this. I think you will see more people speaking up.

Step 5:
What plan? The whole things became flawed at step 1.

My point to you is, this whole thing will collapse, it will implode and eat itself.

All the while the real problem and original cause will never get addressed, which is policing in America. A god damn fucking shame because people don't know how to create and sustain a focused movement. Instead we will focus on stupid shit, like making sure companies higher more blacks into leadership positions. Or making sure Hollywood puts in more black actors into movies. While not addressing the real problems, like public education in the ghetto. While not address single parent homes in the ghetto. While not addressing the lack of community after school programs in the ghetto. While not addressing access to health care, etc. etc. The shit that matters, the shit that lifts people out of poverty permanently. None of that is talked about right now, none of it.
#15109951
Rancid wrote:All the while the real problem and original cause will never get addressed, which is policing in America. A god damn fucking shame because people don't know how to create and sustain a focused movement. Instead we will focus on stupid shit, like making sure companies higher more blacks into leadership positions. Or making sure Hollywood puts in more black actors into movies. While not addressing the real problems, like public education in the ghetto. While not address single parent homes in the ghetto. While not addressing the lack of community after school programs in the ghetto. While not addressing access to health care, etc. etc. The shit that matters, the shit that lifts people out of poverty permanently. None of that is talked about right now, none of it.

This. Instead, for the poverty side of things. To that I would add making fathers matter again (though I suppose that can tie into the “single parent homes in the ghetto” aspect). But the race hustlers saw an opportunity to pile up election capital in an election year, and grabbed onto it with both hands. I’d be getting all schadenfreude-y about the way it’s blowing up in their faces, if the riots weren’t causing so much damage and destroying lives even when no one dies.

On the police side, there’s looking at how police are hired and fired. I would like to ask why Derek Chauvin was even still on the force, but looking at his Wikipedia page he has two medals of valor and two commendation medals to go along with his eighteen complaints, two of which resulted in discipline and official letters of reprimand. I don’t know enough about the complaints to say if there are any red flags in them—and the nature of a law enforcer’s job guarantees that there are going to be people that are unhappy with them even when they do everything right. On the other hands, there’s police unions ... and by their nature, unions are there to protect their members—even when those members deserve to be fired, unfortunately. When incompetent teachers are kept in the classroom, students (or their parents) can compensate or recover. If all else fails, home schooling may be an option. When incompetent police are kept on the force, people die.
#15109961
AFIAK wrote:Read the 1st amendment. If you have freedom of assembly enshrined in your constitution then you don't need to ask permission and be chaperoned by police dressed as soldiers during your assemblies.

The Democrats passed laws against spontaneous assemblies, and the courts upheld it. So you have to do what the Democrats tell you to do.

AFIAK wrote:Whilst I'm here can I ask the reactionaries why the NRA hasn't made it's presence felt in Portland? Secret police abducting people with no identifiers on their vehicles or uniforms. I thought we needed to be heavily armed at all times in order to fight against that.

Generally, gun owners are all about law and order. The US Marshals are not secret police.

Godstud wrote:The 1st Amendment only counts when it's there to support what they want it to support.

Yeah, like governor edicts banning singing in church... :roll:

Patrickov wrote:False. For example, if the police unjustifiably locks someone up in the police station then even overnight protests are justified.

I suppose it doesn't occur to these protesters to get a writ of habeas corpus.

Julian658 wrote: The emergence of Trump and his election in 2016 was due to the incompetence of the Dems and the obsession with race and gender identity politics.

This is all coordinated too, though. There is very little spontaneity about this stuff.

Corporate giants Amazon, Apple, Google and Walmart all donating millions to domestic terrorism organization Black Lives Matter

Julian658 wrote:And what do they do in 2020: Put demented Joe Biden up there and become the party of looting, rioting, and murdered children in the large cities.

Well, I think what they wanted you to think is that Trump is somehow responsible for local law enforcement, but they are simultaneously underscoring that he doesn't have that power as they protest the US Marshals protecting federal buildings.

Rancid wrote:Scientists are starting to find that there is a "conservative" and a "liberal" gene. Of course, it doesn't mean you're locked in if you have one of those genes, but gene's play a role is the point.

Oh, so you're a racist now?

Rancid wrote:Why is it that when I see photos of protests in my own city, it's like 95% white people?

Because it is organized. It is intentional. There is nothing spontaneous about this at all.
#15109973
blackjack21 wrote:Oh, so you're a racist now?

Not sure how that translates to racist, but sure. Everyone's a little bit racist anyway.

blackjack21 wrote:Because it is organized. It is intentional. There is nothing spontaneous about this at all.


Loosely organized, which is why it will fail.

Unthinking Majority wrote:So private businesses are the enemy? They're brutalizing black people? They're targeting Starbucks because...?

No

Unthinking Majority wrote:Violence and destruction are a last resort.


Agree
#15109982
Drlee wrote:I find it hard to believe that the Trump reelection campaign did not write this ordinance. It plays directly into Trump's hands.

Thank you Seattle. I believe the IQ of the city council is about 80. Now I have to listen to endless television ads about how "liberals" want to harm the police and allow violent riots. Look at @Wulfschilde post. He leads with the assumption that the protests are going to be violent. And I think he is right. Here is why and how this plays out.

1. Seattle city council passes absurd law.

2. Trump, "supporting the police and being the law and order president" deploys federal officers to Seattle "to protect federal buildings".

3. There are demonstrations. Trump supplied instigators throw rocks, bottles, fireworks, puppies, whatever, at federal officers who valiantly defend the federal buildings because "the liberals took away the Seattle Police's ability to defend the city".

4. 12,000,291 television ads.

And, here I go changing my mind again, Trump wins the election in the fall.

IF so-called liberals want Trump gone they need to pipe down. NOW. No more BLM protests on the streets. No more defund the cops talk. They need to waive the flag and worship "Middle Class Joe". They need to let him promise change and get behind him. They need to let Trump make a fool of himself and endlessly point to three things. The botched Covid response. Trump's lies and outrageous pronouncements and children in cages. If they don't Trump will win handily. And rightly so.

I have said this many times (and it is certainly not original) "never underestimate the ability for Democrats to loose an election".

This whole thing makes me sick. If I had to predict a winner right now I would have to say my money is on Trump. The Democrats have given him all of the ammunition he needs to win. All he has to do is shut up for 100 days and the Democrats will just hand it to him.


It's what I was arguing against at the beginning of the George Floyd thread: The riots and looting that took place afterwards may as well benefit Trump, particularly since there was no firm government law enforcement response there is no reason for protests to stop.

A complete disaster, one that was not brought only because of sheer stupidity but also because of a deeper fracture within the Democrats between moderates and hardliners (the latter being those who vote for the likes of Bernie or AOC, who are also not too different from people who have always been to the left of the Democrats).

The hardliners have been getting more and more fanatical about their ideas since Obama, and especially since Trump since that's exactly what his strategy is as he's aware he was elected as a reaction to the hardliners in 2016 to begin with. And you can tell this is the case because the old Marxist and social-democratic view on the interrelation between poverty/socioeconomic inequality and racism (with the former causing the latter rather than the other way around) were a lot more accepted as little as 5 years ago. This has a lot to do as to why are people protesting to begin with, the far Left has finally ditched socioeconomic dynamics (including class, poverty, inequality and economic explanations) as a major category of analysis to account for all sorts of social phenomena and replaced it with race and gender. This is like Doctors ditching modern medicine for traditional one.

Yet I still hope Biden wins, despite everything and I think he still is competitive. But now it's not only about getting rid of someone who's been hellbent on destroying America's institutions like Trump is, it's also about deepening that fracture within the Democrats and forcing both wings to face each other for the spoils. If Biden wins, he will probably give in to many of the hardliners' demands at the beginning, until they will demand something moderates will not be willing to concede under any circumstances whatsoever. My guess is that it will be something involving a large tax hike that moderate Democrats and all Republicans (Trumpist or not) will adamantly oppose, rather than stuff related to policing (I would expect reforms on the latter to be focused at the local level). This will force the party to reform.

And speaking about Republicans, the only reason for Trump's dominance over it is that he's at the White House. I'm betting on a similar, yet quicker and quieter, process happening within the Republicans at every level.

This means the next administration will suck, regardless of who wins. But voting for Biden would allow for parties to rebuild as it would expose the internal contradictions of the Democrats and would end Trump's hold over the Republicans.
#15110003
Patrickov wrote:Agreed, but Trump is the current President so his words would spread faster.

True, especially when the MSM(D) is willing to do whatever they can to destroy Trump and protect his enemies.
#15110013
True, especially when the MSM(D) is willing to do whatever they can to destroy Trump and protect his enemies


You mean the MSM like the biggest cable news Fox. Or the MSM like Forbes and the Wall Street Journal.

:roll:
#15110025
Drlee wrote:You mean the MSM like the biggest cable news Fox. Or the MSM like Forbes and the Wall Street Journal.

:roll:

No, I mean the MSM(D).
#15110043
Trump isn't supplying instigators to riot, they are definitely down to do this on their own and they livestream and brag about who they are and what they are doing every night, for months straight in some cases.
#15110142
Patrickov wrote:This is actually as low as pro-China scums crying "Americans are behind Hong Kong protests".

I think both problems are down to one thing: Why they work?


You think this is below the Chinese? I think the only reason they wouldn't do it is that they could get caught if some are arrested.

I'm not saying they're behind the riots, but there could be people making it worse. Maybe not, who knows.
#15110145
The latest on the last weekend in Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan‘s “Summer of Love”:

Seattle rioting results in 59 officers injured as agitators hurl explosives, bottles, rocks

    The Seattle Police Department reported that 59 officers were wounded in the Saturday night rioting after being struck by explosives, bottles and rocks.

    The Seattle Police Blotter posted photos of officers with burns on their skin and other injuries and video of officers being hit by what appeared to be fireworks and small explosives as they worked crowd control.

    “In all 59 officers were injured throughout the day with one of those being hospitalized,” said the Sunday police report. “Injuries ranged from abrasions and bruising to burns and a torn meniscus.”

    Police arrested 47 people in the melee “for assaults on officers, failure to disperse, and obstruction.”

    The protest, the third in the last week in Seattle, also saw destruction to local businesses, including broken windows, looting and vandalism, and damage to the East Precinct and Juvenile Detention Center, as well as five trailers set on fire.

    “Throughout the day officers were moving protesters away from the East Precinct after they threw an explosive at the building causing structural damage,” according to the Sunday police report.

    Police Chief Carmen Best said before the protest that police would use “less lethal” tools such as pepper spray to disperse the crowd, but not tear gas.
#15110209
Everyone normal should (will) move out of these Democrat-led cities. They are basically going to turn into high-security ghettos for the homeless, people on welfare and the feudal lord.

It's actually gonna be pretty metal once the drone cops enter the picture. Normal cops in Seattle are already paid sometimes more than $300,000 a year, that's what you have to pay people to put up with this kind of thing apparently.

"Defund" the police is in some ways even worse than "abolish" because it will lead to a slow decline in these cities as they can't pay people enough to engage in the work with the tools and techniques allowed to them, which will lead to under-policing, fed involvement etc.

This is also potentially an avenue for a transition to a federal police force in the big cities. People are giving it to them. I'm a little surprised no one else is talking about that yet but I guess that AntiFA and BLM have just done that good of a job...
#15110210
:lol: @Wulfschilde You're just full of lies and bullshit, aren't you?


Wulfschilde wrote:$300,000


STEP 5
(54+ Mos Experience) $48.98/hr $8,522/mo $102,264/yr

https://www.seattle.gov/police/police-j ... d-benefits

This is comparable to other cities of the same size, even those led by Republicans.

You still aren't smart enough to know what defund means. You can't teach a willful idiot new things, apparently.
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