First 2020 Debate Thread - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Chad
#15124018
Biden looked like an old man that did not want to be where he was. His responses sucked. He even brought up his dead son. Very poor debate tactics from an old career criminal politician. President Trump was trying to respond to Biden's attacks and lies. President Trump likes to trade verbal punches. He did not follow the rules very well. Biden really looked tired. I kept waiting for him to roll his eyes back and fill his diaper on TV for all to see. Never vote for an Antifa Loving, BLM supporting, Police Defunding, Leftist Democrat this Century. The public will catch the dirty Democrats attempts to cheat with harvested ballots and President Trump will be re elected by Mid November. Illegals and communists still Suck. God Bless America
#15124019
annatar1914 wrote:In the interim, there will be major war elsewhere. Your allies are impatient, and want to use this time of American distraction from foreign affairs as a means of engaging in adventures they otherwise wouldn't be able to.


Like skinster, you have never been to any 3rd world country nor have felt the misery brought upon by political prosecution or repressions. Nor have you ever even talked to people who experienced it.

Not everything that US does is all bad or all good.
#15124021
JohnRawls wrote:Like skinster, you have never been to any 3rd world country nor have felt the misery brought upon by political prosecution or repressions. Nor have you ever even talked to people who experienced it.

Not everything that US does is all bad or all good.


You don't know me or where I've been or who I've talked to. What I know is that you do not mean my country any good no matter what political form it is in. The fact that it exists is an impediment to your geopolitical goals.
#15124022
annatar1914 wrote:You don't know me or where I've been or who I've talked to. What I know is that you do not mean my country any good no matter what political form it is in. The fact that it exists is an impediment to your geopolitical goals.


The point of liberal democracy is to live in peace. Liberal democracies do not fight wars or have any serious conflicts between each other because we know how to resolve problems by talking and discussing and not by opression and supression.
#15124027
JohnRawls wrote:The point of liberal democracy is to live in peace. Liberal democracies do not fight wars or have any serious conflicts between each other because we know how to resolve problems by talking and discussing and not by opression and supression.


''Liberal Democracies'' have caused more bloodshed than any other form of government since their inception, and are the destruction of the very societies they take root in. The only thing that truly lives in peace in a liberal democracy is the money makers ability to suck the life out people in an orderly and peaceful fashion, lulling the citizens into a state of civic catatonia while allowing them their petty vicious pleasures.
#15124029
annatar1914 wrote:''Liberal Democracies'' have caused more bloodshed than any other form of government since their inception, and are the destruction of the very societies they take root in. The only thing that truly lives in peace in a liberal democracy is the money makers ability to suck the life out people in an orderly and peaceful fashion, lulling the citizens into a state of civic catatonia while allowing them their petty vicious pleasures.


Spoken as a person who hasn't seen the alternatives. But I digress here. We can wait 50 days and see what happens.
By wat0n
#15124030
annatar1914 wrote:''Liberal Democracies'' have caused more bloodshed than any other form of government since their inception, and are the destruction of the very societies they take root in. The only thing that truly lives in peace in a liberal democracy is the money makers ability to suck the life out people in an orderly and peaceful fashion, lulling the citizens into a state of civic catatonia while allowing them their petty vicious pleasures.


Really? Because the US has been a liberal democracy from its inception and it has yet to be destroyed :hmm:
#15124031
JohnRawls wrote:Spoken as a person who hasn't seen the alternatives. But I digress here. We can wait 50 days and see what happens.


Again, you assume a great deal. I have seen the alternatives, in many ways.
#15124032
wat0n wrote:Really? Because the US has been a liberal democracy from its inception and it has yet to be destroyed :hmm:


America is and was intended as a Republic, not a Demonocracy. Republics are rule by and for the common good, are structured as such, and guided by the rule of law. Even a Monarchy can be a ''Republic''. But Democracies are rule through the masses, the mob, by oligarchies of wealthy means.
By wat0n
#15124034
annatar1914 wrote:America is and was intended as a Republic, not a Demonocracy. Republics are rule by and for the common good, are structured as such, and guided by the rule of law. Even a Monarchy can be a ''Republic''. But Democracies are rule through the masses, the mob, by oligarchies of wealthy means.


But liberal democracies are also guided by the rule of law - with some form of Constitution being the top law. I think you are confusing liberal democracies with what Polybius termed as "ochlocracy".
#15124036
annatar1914 wrote:Again, you assume a great deal. I have seen the alternatives, in many ways.


All right, may be your experience was different from I have experienced. The ones that I have and had through my life are exceptionally negative for the alternatives and exceptially good for liberal democracy. And almost every year, I have been reminded of this by the events in the real world near my country. Mostly my experiences are from the following countries: Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, South Africa, Egypt, Thailand without counting the liberal democratic countries and my home country. I can add a couple of others to the list but I have been not that much in them to judge.
#15124038
wat0n wrote:But liberal democracies are also guided by the rule of law - with some form of Constitution being the top law. I think you are confusing liberal democracies with what Polybius termed as "ochlocracy".


But that's my point; Republics go beyond written law to that whole ''web'' of traditions and civic virtues necessary for civilization. ''Liberal Democracies'' are all ''Ochlocracies'' in reality.
#15124040
JohnRawls wrote:All right, may be your experience was different from I have experienced. The ones that I have and had through my life are exceptionally negative for the alternatives and exceptially good for liberal democracy. And almost every year, I have been reminded of this by the events in the real world near my country. Mostly my experiences are from the following countries: Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, South Africa, Egypt, Thailand without counting the liberal democratic countries and my home country. I can add a couple of others to the list but I have been not that much in them to judge.


''seen'', or been biased by? Am I to understand that you are Estonian, correct?
#15124042
annatar1914 wrote:''seen'', or been biased by? Am I to understand that you are Estonian, correct?


I am Estonian, yes. I have more then "seen" the issues in the named countries. Mostly through either personal experiences and friends etc. The funny thing is that most of the time, the patterns of people starting to disbelieve in their own corrupt regimes is pretty much very similar.
By wat0n
#15124043
annatar1914 wrote:But that's my point; Republics go beyond written law to that whole ''web'' of traditions and civic virtues necessary for civilization. ''Liberal Democracies'' are all ''Ochlocracies'' in reality.


I don't think so, but they may indeed devolve into that. It happens constantly in Latin America.
User avatar
By Beren
#15124054
JohnRawls wrote:He needs to turn this in to a clown shown and distract people.

He managed to make it a shit show in 10 minutes, I wonder if how it did him any good. I mean I used headphones while watching the debate and in the 11th minute I literally caught myself shouting out at him so loud that my neighbours must have heard it too, which I wonder if when happened the last time. He just got on my nerves, that's all, which he didn't do in the 2016 debates, during which he was rather an amusement to me. 'I know nothing about Russia.' :lol: It must have been true since it came so naturally and spontaneously from him. Did he say something like that again?
#15124058
Chad wrote:He even brought up his dead son. Very poor debate tactics from an old career criminal politician.

Well, that stuff used to go off without a hitch. People knew it was phony by the 2000s. By the mid-2000s, Dan Rather destroyed his career and credibility by participating in a phony story about Bush using a phony letter from a high ranking officer, which sharp computer people knew was a fake because the font used did not exist on 1960s era typewriters.

Special interests have colluded with candidates as well. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth undermined John Kerry in a similar manner, but they were not part of a media apparatus working in tandem with a political party.

It was painfully obvious in 2008 with the attacks on Sarah Palin that the establishment worked with the media to serve their ends. In 2012, it was even more clear as Candy Crowley took Obama's side on denying the lies about Benghazi. Romney predictably cucked.

Trump is the one guy who has shown how to turn that on its head. By debating and attacking Chris Wallace, Trump illustrated that Wallace was clearly on Biden's side, and was desperately trying to stop the inquiry into Hunter Biden, Burisma, Ukraine and Hunter's involvement in investment money from China and Russia. Trump had Biden on the ropes, and Chris Wallace came to Biden's defense numerous times.

Chad wrote:President Trump was trying to respond to Biden's attacks and lies.

The notion that Trump called troops "losers" and "suckers" was as obviously bullshit as the Trump-Russia collusion theory. However, the establishment has made the calculation that the only way to defeat Trump is to try to undermine political support for him among his base by way of attacks on his character while side stepping substantive policy debates. So recapitulating a story that was already considered demonstrably bullshit and then try to bring up a "poor me, my dead son served in Iraq and you called him a loser and a sucker" was clearly insincere, and left Trump with the opportunity to take another swipe at Hunter Biden, triggering Chris Wallace to come to Biden's aid yet again.

Chad wrote:He did not follow the rules very well.

No. He didn't, but if he allowed Biden to take shots and didn't deliver the counter punches, the rules would be enforced to make Trump lose.

JohnRawls wrote:The point of liberal democracy is to live in peace. Liberal democracies do not fight wars or have any serious conflicts between each other because we know how to resolve problems by talking and discussing and not by opression and supression.

Really? The US had a Department of War, and the British had a War Office. Are you one of those who devolves into semantic arguments to defend the idea that liberal democracies don't go to war?

annatar1914 wrote:''Liberal Democracies'' have caused more bloodshed than any other form of government since their inception, and are the destruction of the very societies they take root in.

I would say communism has a darker history in terms of sheer bloodshed.
#15124065
JohnRawls wrote:I am Estonian, yes. I have more then "seen" the issues in the named countries. Mostly through either personal experiences and friends etc. The funny thing is that most of the time, the patterns of people starting to disbelieve in their own corrupt regimes is pretty much very similar.


Is it possible though that your perception of what a ''corrupt regime'' is comes from the tragic history of the region and the unique experiences of the Estonian people? Centuries of rule by German and Swedish aristocracy, even after the Romanovs won the Great Northern War, with most of the cities and towns in the Baltic inhabited largely by Germans and Jews? Lutheranism, etc...?
#15124066
wat0n wrote:I don't think so, but they may indeed devolve into that. It happens constantly in Latin America.


It is still in the world, so yes the United States is not exceptionally immune to the general historical forces. However, it has lasted as long as it has because it has so far up until recently mastered the forces of Ochlocracy.
#15124067
@annatar1914 Rome ruled the same way and lasted longer than the USA will. It seems Republics eventually fall to despotism.
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