annatar1914 wrote:No denying that there has been a bloody history involved. The Revolutionaries were still men of their times, born for the most part in the later half of the 1800's, and when they took over they treated the Russian lands much as King Leopold did his Congo Free State, with a European Colonialists' attitude towards their subjects.
In a way, but nobody would call either the communists or King Leopold liberal democrats. Leopold was strictly exploiting resources. Russia was transforming into an industrial power, where industrialists had serfs working in factories. It was a model that could not last with the rapid onset of industrialization, much like the violent overthrow of slavery in the United States.
Wat0n wrote:It should be noted too that 19th century US was a lot worse in this regard than current America. For instance, clientelism was a feature for most of that era.
Cough cough, Bush/Clinton cough Bush/Clinton cough cough. How did you watch that debate last night and not see Chris Wallace as working for the establishment for the establishment's ends? I mean the entire tax question directed only to Trump was totally out of order, the NYTimes either illegally received Trump's returns or lied about illegally receiving Trump's returns (from establishment bureaucrats), Biden released his just before the debate and then Wallace pounces on Trump... That is politics by personal relationships writ large. It's in fact why people do not trust the system anymore. Imagine how quickly the US government's operations would degrade if we just fired everyone that graduated from either Yale or Harvard. There is certainly clientelism today. That's why you see Comey, Fitzgerald, and Mueller working against George W. Bush and Donald Trump. It's unmistakable if you're looking for it.
Wat0n wrote:The whole point of the not-so-democratic provisions of the Constitution is precisely to make it harder to devolve into an ochlocracy.
Yes, and that's why we wouldn't see a senate confirmation hearing of a SCOTUS candidate then like we see now, because the Senate was not democratically elected in the 19th Century either. They were appointed by the states. So the non-democratic justice was confirmed by the non-democratic senate. Now we have a democratic senate, which has degraded the body in my view.
To get things back on topic, that's why I think the debates last night were interesting. Wallace joined the fray on behalf of Biden to protect Biden from Trump. Wallace, supposedly the journalist, didn't ask the toughest questions. That fell to Trump. It was Trump who pressed Biden on whether Biden would pack the court. Biden wouldn't answer, and Wallace cut off Trump rather than demanding an answer from Biden. That's the establishment game, and if you play it, you lose. Trump didn't play it. He won, but he won ugly as it is the only way to win with these people.
Crantag wrote:Thomas Friedman claimed that no two countries with a McDonald's had ever gone to war with one another. I'm pretty sure he wanted to colonize Iraq with McDonald's and Walmart.
Yeah, but I'm guessing Thomas Friedman didn't spend much time in the Balkans in the 1990s. I'm pretty sure both Israel and Lebanon had McDonalds. I know Russia and Georgia had McDonalds when Russia invaded Abkhazia. Panama had McDonalds when the US invaded during the first Bush administration. Basically, Thomas Friedman wants you to ponder, come up empty, and think, "You know?? He's right!" But he's not right.
"We have put together the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics."
-- Joe Biden