Will Trump be remembered in History? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15139766
Of course Trump's legacy will turn almost entirely on what the US and New York Attorneys General do. I am fairly sure that Trump will be convicted of a few felonies in the State of New York. Will he be charged in federal court? He is guilty as hell of any number of felonies. They are so obvious that a dog with a note in his mouth could successfully prosecute him in Federal Court. My suspicion is that as long as Donald keeps his mouth shut and does not try to run again or broker the 2024 election that the feds might give him a pass.

Once he leaves office the republican stalwarts who backed him will start backing away. Even Ms. Lindsey Graham who, before deciding to be Trump's surrogate dog, said:

Image

will drop him like his locker-mates dick.

This is not a hard one. (No pun intended.)

Trump's legacy for good works (whatever they may have been) will be utterly drowned-out by the endless hours of video of Trump making an absolute fool out of himself. He can't hide from that.

There is an alternate universe where fascism will finally succeed in the US and that we will have a leader so utterly authoritarian and so completely in control, that HE (and it will be a HE) will find Trump a useful foil for his own despotism. He will hide behind Trump by suppressing the historical record and rehabilitate Trump's memory.

But the most likely scenario is that Trump will go down in history as the first former-president to go to prison.
#15139769
Drlee wrote:Of course Trump's legacy will turn almost entirely on what the US and New York Attorneys General do. I am fairly sure that Trump will be convicted of a few felonies in the State of New York. Will he be charged in federal court? He is guilty as hell of any number of felonies. They are so obvious that a dog with a note in his mouth could successfully prosecute him in Federal Court. My suspicion is that as long as Donald keeps his mouth shut and does not try to run again or broker the 2024 election that the feds might give him a pass.

Once he leaves office the republican stalwarts who backed him will start backing away. Even Ms. Lindsey Graham who, before deciding to be Trump's surrogate dog, said:

Image

will drop him like his locker-mates dick.

This is not a hard one. (No pun intended.)

Trump's legacy for good works (whatever they may have been) will be utterly drowned-out by the endless hours of video of Trump making an absolute fool out of himself. He can't hide from that.

There is an alternate universe where fascism will finally succeed in the US and that we will have a leader so utterly authoritarian and so completely in control, that HE (and it will be a HE) will find Trump a useful foil for his own despotism. He will hide behind Trump by suppressing the historical record and rehabilitate Trump's memory.

But the most likely scenario is that Trump will go down in history as the first former-president to go to prison.


@Drlee , you have a point, and one future Authoritarians in the US will remember in their calculations.

This continuation of the election is all really over the management of what President Trump's post-presidential future is to be; leverage, negotiation, power plays, back room deals. All behind a screen of courtroom drama and press conferences.
#15139814
annatar1914 wrote:about European gushing over Barack Obama as part of what I'll call a ''quasi-monarchial'' impulse persisting in modern times;


Obama came after Bush Jr., who at the end of his two terms was probably disliked like no other president before him. Lots of it was simply relief.

Also I would argue there's a qualitative difference between gushing over a foreign leader and your own.

annatar1914 wrote:Was it though? Looking back it seemed different than the fawning over Gorbachev or even Pope John Paul II (who was a real Monarch, come to think of it). With Obama, it was almost Messianic how white Liberals acted towards him.


No way, Gorbachev was of a different stature in Europe.

annatar1914 wrote:Having gone from being a reactionary Monarchist when I first posted on PoFo, to a Socialist small-r republican, I happen to agree to a point. But there has to be an institution capable of exceptions and emergencies beyond the formal written constitutions in order to preserve the institutions as a whole.

That's why, while I'm almost 110% certain that the 2020 US Presidential election was rigged against President Trump, it could well have been justifiable for reasons which the usual binary American Liberal versus Conservative have nothing to do with.


You mean the deep state? :lol:

I obviously don't believe the 2020 election was rigged and I don't think it would have been justifiable at all. In fact I cannot think of any situation where it would be, short of literally avoiding Hitler.

Verv wrote:Why should I believe that Macron or Merkel are any different?


Oh they are. I mean they simply don't talk like morons.

Verv wrote:Western Europeans are just like Americans except they're even more likely to have political correctness placed up their rear ends sideways. They like to pretend they care so much about imperialism and aren't just jealous of the fact that America has something of an Empire & they need to learn to talk like Yanks to be successful in life.


Political correctness is mostly an American thing, though it seeps over the Atlantic dangerously. Of course Europeans are much more likely to simply ban certain speech they don't like, which makes it illegal and removes the need for inofficial censorship (aka political correctness).
#15139824
Godstud wrote:"Hillary"? Irrelevant. Any other reasonable and rational person would have done better.

They would have worn a mask. They would have sent messages to UNITE the nation, and not divide it. They would have shown empathy and mobilized the country, leading from the top. They wouldn't have threatened states where the state leaders didn't praise the country's leader for inaction.

I already posted the CDC's recommended response by leaders(which Trump was shown, incidentally).

Five communication failures that kill operational success
Communication experts and leaders who’ve faced disasters can tell others
what is going to cripple or even destroy the success of their disaster
response operation.


ƒ Mixed messages from multiple experts
ƒ Information released late
ƒ Paternalistic attitudes
ƒ Not countering rumors and myths in real time
ƒ Public power struggles and confusion

https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/resource ... eaders.pdf

In all honesty, you or I could have done a much fucking better job than Trump, and we don't have the resources he does for information and advice.

I think Trump was the WORST person for leader of the USA during the pandemic. If he'd done absolutely nothing, and just stayed on the golf course, it would have been an improvement.


I get your point of view, but tell me how many people's deaths are attributed to Trumps behavior? You think if the President went by the book of the CDC our situation would have been much better? I fail to see this being true, as most of the world has similar issues to the US. I know he can be irritating but blaming him on the deaths is not really fair. I mean look at Governor Cuomo his mistakes and actions with Old Peoples homes in NY literally killed people. can you say same for Trump I doubt that. You are dealing with 50 pretty sovereign states when it comes to things like masks, and closures. Not to mention it was the State democrat's keeping mum on the thousands of protests, where thousands upon thousands of people were bunched up next to each other.
#15139842
Wrong point by point. Here is why:

I get your point of view, but tell me how many people's deaths are attributed to Trumps behavior?


Early on, when the other countries of the world were taking steps to slow this thing Trump did next to nothing. In fact, he deliberately spread disinformation.

You think if the President went by the book of the CDC our situation would have been much better?


I know it would have. And we have a world of evidence to prove it.

I fail to see this being true, as most of the world has similar issues to the US.


No. Actually they do not. They have the same challenges but they have risen to those challenges. Thailand, a country of 1/5 the population of the US has had 60 (count them) 60 deaths from Covid. We will lose 60,000 in the next three weeks. They did what our CDC told the world to do before Trump stopped them.


I know he can be irritating but blaming him on the deaths is not really fair. I mean look at Governor Cuomo his mistakes and actions with Old Peoples homes in NY literally killed people.


And, learning from NY's mistakes, they fixed it. Trump did not learn. He continued to block efforts to help. He did not even significantly increase PPE production. He denied that this was serious. Cuomo got to work and got results.

You are dealing with 50 pretty sovereign states when it comes to things like masks, and closures.


National leadership would have made the difference. That is all Trump all of the time. While we should have been staying home, wearing masks, and social distancing, we had a president who made not wearing a mask a sign of party orthodoxy. It is a disgrace. You can't hide behind the states. They have always been sovereign. They also can be compelled to behave. All we had to do is threaten to take away federal highway money and they all raised their drinking age to 21. And what did Trump do? Nothing. Oh wait. He and Moscow Mitch still are blocking the emergency aid that could save our businesses and people from bankruptcy while saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

Seriously @Oxymoron You have nowhere to go on this one. The failures are obvious, glaring and easy to prove. Why run? Why not just admit that a competent president would have done more, faster and more comprehensively? Why defend this buffoon? What is in it for you? Do you want another do-nothing president in the next crisis?

You get no cover from pointing in all directions and saying "but the democrats rioted". Two reasons. The Democrats did not riot or gather in significant numbers. Some very specific protesters did. And if the federal government had, from the start, taken this pandemic seriously there would have been pressure on Trump followers and BLM people to behave responsibly.

I really don't get it. You have a failed president on his way out. He has done nothing for the middle class in this country except preside over their financial ruin and their miserable deaths from a preventable disease. Why in the name of all that is Holy are you defending the fucks? You can have your conservatism. I am all for that being a conservative myself. But we are not going to get a conservative government until we get this current batch of RINOs out of office.
#15139843
@Rugoz ,

Obama came after Bush Jr., who at the end of his two terms was probably disliked like no other president before him. Lots of it was simply relief.

Also I would argue there's a qualitative difference between gushing over a foreign leader and your own.


''relief'' at Bush being out doesn't explain the messianic fawning over Obama worldwide, giving him a Nobel Prize for absolutely nothing, etc...


No way, Gorbachev was of a different stature in Europe.


Was he? I'll admit that West Europeans saw him as an embodiment of the end of the Cold War, ending the spectre of being taken over by Communism or nuclear war.


You mean the deep state? :lol:

I obviously don't believe the 2020 election was rigged and I don't think it would have been justifiable at all. In fact I cannot think of any situation where it would be, short of literally avoiding Hitler.


There are those who do think of Trump in exactly that narrative frame, of him being a Fascist like Hitler or Mussolini.

There are many, perhaps quite a number right here on PoFo, who absolutely therefore would justify rigging the election against President Trump just to prevent him having a second term. They just won't openly admit it, because many hypocritically pride themselves on their alleged commitment to free and fair elections and honoring the results of those elections.
#15139846
Drlee wrote:Wrong point by point. Here is why:



Early on, when the other countries of the world were taking steps to slow this thing Trump did next to nothing. In fact, he deliberately spread disinformation.



I know it would have. And we have a world of evidence to prove it.



No. Actually they do not. They have the same challenges but they have risen to those challenges. Thailand, a country of 1/5 the population of the US has had 60 (count them) 60 deaths from Covid. We will lose 60,000 in the next three weeks. They did what our CDC told the world to do before Trump stopped them.




And, learning from NY's mistakes, they fixed it. Trump did not learn. He continued to block efforts to help. He did not even significantly increase PPE production. He denied that this was serious. Cuomo got to work and got results.



National leadership would have made the difference. That is all Trump all of the time. While we should have been staying home, wearing masks, and social distancing, we had a president who made not wearing a mask a sign of party orthodoxy. It is a disgrace. You can't hide behind the states. They have always been sovereign. They also can be compelled to behave. All we had to do is threaten to take away federal highway money and they all raised their drinking age to 21. And what did Trump do? Nothing. Oh wait. He and Moscow Mitch still are blocking the emergency aid that could save our businesses and people from bankruptcy while saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

Seriously @Oxymoron You have nowhere to go on this one. The failures are obvious, glaring and easy to prove. Why run? Why not just admit that a competent president would have done more, faster and more comprehensively? Why defend this buffoon? What is in it for you? Do you want another do-nothing president in the next crisis?

You get no cover from pointing in all directions and saying "but the democrats rioted". Two reasons. The Democrats did not riot or gather in significant numbers. Some very specific protesters did. And if the federal government had, from the start, taken this pandemic seriously there would have been pressure on Trump followers and BLM people to behave responsibly.

I really don't get it. You have a failed president on his way out. He has done nothing for the middle class in this country except preside over their financial ruin and their miserable deaths from a preventable disease. Why in the name of all that is Holy are you defending the fucks? You can have your conservatism. I am all for that being a conservative myself. But we are not going to get a conservative government until we get this current batch of RINOs out of office.


Asia and Africa have been hit the least, I think there is something on the DNA or blood type level that has to do with that. Not how the governments responded specifically in your example of Thailand. Not to mention governments in Asia have far more control then we do in the west. Your points about national leadership might sound good, but you cannot quantify that into a death toll. NY learned, but their actions directly led to death... Perhaps Trumps inaction without having all the data might not be so bad? He did shut down travel, when most of the Democrat's opposed that move. As far as defending him, I am trying to be fair. I do not think any President could have handled it to avoid what we have, not with happened with the protests and not with the sovereignty of each state.
#15139847
Drlee wrote:
I really don't get it. You have a failed president on his way out. He has done nothing for the middle class in this country except preside over their financial ruin and their miserable deaths from a preventable disease. Why in the name of all that is Holy are you defending the fucks? You can have your conservatism. I am all for that being a conservative myself. But we are not going to get a conservative government until we get this current batch of RINOs out of office.


@Drlee

It is indeed so odd to me that all he had to do-if he truly does have Authoritarian tendencies-is listen to the scientists and medical experts, use the full force of the Federal government to mobilize the country, and the man would be hailed as the Third Founder of America (after Washington and Lincoln) and probably be made President for Life.

Honestly, I was more concerned about that, but it never happened...

So why didn't it, in your opinion?

Now, my personal take on the reasons why is that my earlier intuition that Trump is something of a Ayn Rand style Objectivist/Libertarian/Social Darwinist is in fact correct. Ideology destroyed his Presidency.
#15139853
@annatar1914 It is indeed so odd to me that all he had to do-if he truly does have Authoritarian tendencies-is listen to the scientists and medical experts, use the full force of the Federal government to mobilize the country, and the man would be hailed as the Third Founder of America (after Washington and Lincoln) and probably be made President for Life.


Precisely. He literally did all of the stuff he should not have done. I can't rationalize it at all. Is he so psychologically damaged that he can't think through any problem? Can he just not accept any bad news at all? Is Russia calling the shots on him? Is he damaging the US at their behest? (I would think that the downside for Putin would be too great to try but then, who knows?) I can't blame this on a lack of intelligence because it would not have taken above average intelligence to make the good decisions. He staggers the imagination that any politician could miss an opportunity to be the next FDR at the least.

But you know what is even more staggering? The Republican politicians who let him do it. That is beyond comprehension. Was his cult of personality so great that they could not stand against it? They could have dumped him and had Ms. Pence as president. He would have done whatever they asked. The democrats gave him the best opportunity to do it in the impeachment and, having been impeached, he would also have been effectively silenced. Stunning.

So why didn't it, in your opinion?

I think we learned a very hard lesson in this last election. We learned three things actually.

The first is that the US is still, at its heart, fighting the civil war. It is a deeply racist country with at the very least half of the population dedicated to that racism/xenophobia.

Then second is that we have at least half of the population who is so angry that they are willing to break anything, kill anyone, or suffer any indignity in service to the above. After all. The system DID fail them. They ARE worse off. The DOW does NOT reflect their quality of life. And they don't know what to do about it except follow some tough-talking populist. They see their religion under attack. It sorta' is. They see their real wages falling. They despair for heath care. So they don't go for the people who can actually help with these. They go for the guy who talks about draining the swamp, protecting their guns all the while blaming illegal immigrants for their problems.

For me this is the $64,000.00 question. How do you deal with people like that? What can be done to stifle the power of our oligarchs and get some balance back into our economics? Ironically this could happen in one of three ways. We could go hard left and pull down the monopolies while passing more wealth to the middle class. We could go classic Republican and embrace a free market globalist economy with worker protections as a preferable way to control excesses. Nixon style if you like. Or we could go hard over to the right and get a strongman to do it. I think that is what people thought Trump might be. He was, of course, not. Not even a little though he tried to sound like it on Twitter.

Now, my personal take on the reasons why is that my earlier intuition that Trump is something of a Ayn Rand style Objectivist/Libertarian/Social Darwinist is in fact correct. Ideology destroyed his Presidency.


Possibly. But seriously Anatar. Do you think he is personally that deep? Looking at his life before the presidency he seems to be the king of bling and not much more. And in his presidency he did not display any consistent ideological underpinning. If he had that would he have made the almost absurd cabinet choices that he did? Would his SCOTUS choices not have been more libertarian and not the hard right ideologues that he chose? There is no way to see Objectivist or Libertarian views in the latest one. She is a hard right religious traditionalist; the very opposite of libertarian in any real sense.

Perhaps a lack of ideology destroyed his presidency. My suspicion is that it is pathology that he was unable to overcome that was his undoing. He had a perfect road map to success. He should have won by a landslide. Indeed was very close to doing it. What do you think?
#15139858
@Drlee

Precisely. He literally did all of the stuff he should not have done. I can't rationalize it at all. Is he so psychologically damaged that he can't think through any problem?


I think his Ideology got the better of him, and in fact it might really have been a case of ''Mission Accomplished'' for him in that sense.


Can he just not accept any bad news at all?


If his role as he sees it is to take advantage of the crisis to weaken the ''Federal Leviathan'', then he could be very accepting of the bad news.


Is Russia calling the shots on him? Is he damaging the US at their behest? (I would think that the downside for Putin would be too great to try but then, who knows?)


No, let's put that conspiracy theory to rest. President Putin has on numerous occasions over decades now insisted to the Russian people that a strong and prosperous America is absolutely necessary for the World Order and thus the national security of Russia herself, that Russia and America working together are a solid guarantee of peace and prosperity in the world. Russians don't want another Hitler or worse invading Russia, never again. Putin had nothing to do with Trump, and Trump has been about as Anti-Russian in his actions as any American leader could possibly be, in reality. I'd see Putin more as hoping America got rid of Trump, actually.


I can't blame this on a lack of intelligence because it would not have taken above average intelligence to make the good decisions. He staggers the imagination that any politician could miss an opportunity to be the next FDR at the least.


There are people out there, wealthy and powerful people, who want to destroy everything FDR did, even planning on overthrowing FDR in 1933, before General Smedley Butler went public and went before Congress to expose the plot.

President Trump is ideological heir to those people.


But you know what is even more staggering? The Republican politicians who let him do it. That is beyond comprehension. Was his cult of personality so great that they could not stand against it? They could have dumped him and had Ms. Pence as president. He would have done whatever they asked. The democrats gave him the best opportunity to do it in the impeachment and, having been impeached, he would also have been effectively silenced. Stunning.

So why didn't it, in your opinion?


I think there are enough of them who are close enough to Trump in ideology that they let him do their dirty work. Now they can get rid of him.

I think we learned a very hard lesson in this last election. We learned three things actually.

The first is that the US is still, at its heart, fighting the civil war. It is a deeply racist country with at the very least half of the population dedicated to that racism/xenophobia.


The Civil War never ended. It just went from a ''Hot War'' phase to a ''Cold War'' phase.

Then second is that we have at least half of the population who is so angry that they are willing to break anything, kill anyone, or suffer any indignity in service to the above. After all. The system DID fail them. They ARE worse off. The DOW does NOT reflect their quality of life. And they don't know what to do about it except follow some tough-talking populist. They see their religion under attack. It sorta' is. They see their real wages falling. They despair for heath care. So they don't go for the people who can actually help with these. They go for the guy who talks about draining the swamp, protecting their guns all the while blaming illegal immigrants for their problems.


And he screwed them over, which is why enough of them skipped out or voted for Biden in 2020 that it resulted in what we see today.

For me this is the $64,000.00 question. How do you deal with people like that? What can be done to stifle the power of our oligarchs and get some balance back into our economics? Ironically this could happen in one of three ways. We could go hard left and pull down the monopolies while passing more wealth to the middle class. We could go classic Republican and embrace a free market globalist economy with worker protections as a preferable way to control excesses. Nixon style if you like. Or we could go hard over to the right and get a strongman to do it. I think that is what people thought Trump might be. He was, of course, not. Not even a little though he tried to sound like it on Twitter.


My answer is true Leftism, somewhat modified. ''Conservatives'' aren't conserving anything, and much to my chagrin aren't truly socially conservative, as I'm genuinely pro-life, pro-traditional family and morality. Liberals would never have to worry about political challenges from the Right ever again had they not jettisoned socially conservative but economically liberal democrat voters.

But you're right, the Oligarchs have to be stopped, and so I'm not going to be too choosy about who my allies are as long as they're still doing the Lord's work, so to speak, despite their flaws.

Now on President Trump's ideology;


Possibly. But seriously Anatar. Do you think he is personally that deep? Looking at his life before the presidency he seems to be the king of bling and not much more.


Oh no, I assure you the guy is as sharp as can be. He has a very well-crafted public persona that has taken him all the way to the Presidency of the United States.


And in his presidency he did not display any consistent ideological underpinning. If he had that would he have made the almost absurd cabinet choices that he did? Would his SCOTUS choices not have been more libertarian and not the hard right ideologues that he chose? There is no way to see Objectivist or Libertarian views in the latest one. She is a hard right religious traditionalist; the very opposite of libertarian in any real sense.


Barrett is on the contrary, a dream pick for the big corporations, and will probably help dismantle the ACA among other things.

Trump is employing a Right-Wing Libertarian version of the ''Cloward-Piven Strategy'', and in light of that, his picks make perfect sense;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E ... e%20system

That is, bankrupting the system and utterly destroying it by bloating it beyond repair.


Perhaps a lack of ideology destroyed his presidency. My suspicion is that it is pathology that he was unable to overcome that was his undoing. He had a perfect road map to success. He should have won by a landslide. Indeed was very close to doing it. What do you think?


As my answers before might indicate, the man is in reality a total ideologue from day one. I knew this when he deliberately destroyed the Reform Party together with his friend Gov. Ventura, almost 20 years ago.

I'm not sure then that winning a second term was something he's truly struggling for. Sure, it would have been the icing on the cake to further his work, but he's already damaged the political establishment possibly beyond repair.
#15139863
annatar1914 wrote:''relief'' at Bush being out doesn't explain the messianic fawning over Obama worldwide, giving him a Nobel Prize for absolutely nothing, etc...


Actually "relief" explains the Nobel Peace Price very well. Bush Jr. was perceived as a warmonger (Afghanistan, Iraq), torturer (Guantanamo, CIA prisons) and divider ("with us or against us").

Along came Obama with his flowery rhetoric.

annatar1914 wrote:Was he? I'll admit that West Europeans saw him as an embodiment of the end of the Cold War, ending the spectre of being taken over by Communism or nuclear war.


Yes, before he became more critical of NATO he was the hero of the day.
#15139872
Rugoz wrote:Actually "relief" explains the Nobel Peace Price very well. Bush Jr. was perceived as a warmonger (Afghanistan, Iraq), torturer (Guantanamo, CIA prisons) and divider ("with us or against us").

Along came Obama with his flowery rhetoric.



Yes, before he became more critical of NATO he was the hero of the day.


@Rugoz ,

Well I won't belabor the point, but I'm not as fond of ''the great men of history'' concept as some might be.

As for Gorbachev, I am not overly fond of him in any case, and he is an example (like Obama and others) of a ''great man'' who is anything but great in reality. It's like the common calling of various athletes and celebrities ''heroes''; it rather cheapens the whole idea of what a true Hero is.
#15146141
Perhaps Fat Donald will be remembered in history as an American president who got his ass kicked by a 16 year girl and whined and cried about it :lol: .

trump, 73, has hit out at 16-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg in an apparent fit of rage after she beat him to be named Time magazine’s Person of the Year. Trump described the decision, which was announced Wednesday, as “ridiculous” in an incredibly petty Thursday morning tweet. The president wrote: “Greta must work on her Anger Management problem, then go to a good old fashioned movie with a friend! Chill Greta, Chill!”
Image

Fat Donald getting his ass kicked ^
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