Biden changes Trump law for transgender toilets & sport - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15161219
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. I claimed that race is entirely a social construct while sex is not. Sex is not gender identity and it is almost certainly true that gender identity is not based solely on sex.

Mind you, sexual designation is also based almost solely on visible gonads, even though sex is actually more complicated than that.

Gender roles are a social construct, but gender identity seems like it based on series of things, many of which are biological but many of which may also be social or environmental.


A guide to identity by postmodern wokeism.

Racial identity = 100% social
Sexual identity = 100% biological
Gender identity = depending on the mood and the subject, sometimes 100% social(when it comes to traditional gender roles), or 100% biological when it comes to non-traditional gender roles or you can play 60:40 or 40:60 depending on the pronoun.
#15161220
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, that would not provide any sort of evidence for your argument.

And since you are not quoting anything, I will assume there is none.


Why wouldn't it? Isn't the idea that some men pretend to be women to go into women's bathrooms to rape them and that accepting trans identities enables them to do that the same accusation?

Pants-of-dog wrote:The different ideological outlooks of different types of non-progressive groups is not relevant to the topic. Suffice it to say that claiming one side is playing identity politics and we should ignore them because of this makes no sense. All sides are doing so.


I don't think I said that. I said that I want identity politics to become as hard to practice as possible, and accepting transgender and transracial identities would be a great step in that direction. This includes accepting nonbinary and fluid identities, to make it even harder to practice identity politics from where it matters the most, namely, the government.

If you cannot individualize who's part of which group, because people can legally identify as whatever they want and (even better) claim it's fluid and make it a hate crime to question these claims, the clientelism ends. Of course this is not an ideal situation (the ideal situation would be to just accept these identities for what they are and use identity politics not to obsess about how we are different but to think about what we have in common, while at the same time acknowledging our differences may not be a bad thing after all), but it would probably be an improvement and in any event is one long term outcome of taking the postmodern crap seriously while not being a hypocrite about it like the postmodern culture warriors are.
#15161227
wat0n wrote:Why wouldn't it? Isn't the idea that some men pretend to be women to go into women's bathrooms to rape them and that accepting trans identities enables them to do that the same accusation?


You were arguing that transracial identity is comparable to transgender identity. You have yet to provide any evidence for this claim.

I don't think I said that. I said that I want identity politics to become as hard to practice as possible, and accepting transgender and transracial identities would be a great step in that direction. This includes accepting nonbinary and fluid identities, to make it even harder to practice identity politics from where it matters the most, namely, the government.

If you cannot individualize who's part of which group, because people can legally identify as whatever they want and (even better) claim it's fluid and make it a hate crime to question these claims, the clientelism ends. Of course this is not an ideal situation (the ideal situation would be to just accept these identities for what they are and use identity politics not to obsess about how we are different but to think about what we have in common, while at the same time acknowledging our differences may not be a bad thing after all), but it would probably be an improvement and in any event is one long term outcome of taking the postmodern crap seriously while not being a hypocrite about it like the postmodern culture warriors are.


This seems to be off topic.
#15161229
Pants-of-dog wrote:You were arguing that transracial identity is comparable to transgender identity. You have yet to provide any evidence for this claim.


Why wouldn't it be? Just arbitrarily arguing about social constructions doesn't quite cut it here, because that doesn't seem to be relevant.

One thing both have in common is about the (supposed?) right of people to decide how they perceive themselves.
#15161231
wat0n wrote:Why wouldn't it be? Just arbitrarily arguing about social constructions doesn't quite cut it here, because that doesn't seem to be relevant.

One thing both have in common is about the (supposed?) right of people to decide how they perceive themselves.


In my experience, the only people who make the claim that they are similar fall into one of two categories:

1. People who are trying to excuse cultural appropriation, and...
2. People who want to dismiss trans identities by arguing that both are ridiculous.

Furthermore, being transracial is not a thing. There is no movement or human rights issue associated with it.

If you can provide an example of someone who is honestly not engaging in cultural appropriation and is genuinely not trying to dismiss trans experiences and is making this argument, I would really love to see it.
#15161233
Pants-of-dog wrote:In my experience, the only people who make the claim that they are similar fall into one of two categories:

1. People who are trying to excuse cultural appropriation, and...
2. People who want to dismiss trans identities by arguing that both are ridiculous.

Furthermore, being transracial is not a thing. There is no movement or human rights issue associated with it.

If you can provide an example of someone who is honestly not engaging in cultural appropriation and is genuinely not trying to dismiss trans experiences and is making this argument, I would really love to see it.


I already provided you with examples of people who claimed to have transracial identities (i.e. identify as members of a different race).

This is also an ad-populum fallacy, just because they haven't set up a movement or that their dysphoria is uncommon does not mean they are wrong.
#15161235
@wat0n

You supplied a link to the Wikipedia article about Dolezal. She was obviously trying to appropriate the identity of a marginalised person in order to benefit herself. If she did try to use this comparison, it was to justify her behaviour.

The second Wiki article was a (not very good) philosophical defence of Dolezal by another cis white woman. Having said that, Ms. Tuvel seems to have made an honest effort, and her transphobia and racism seem to be unconscious and based on ignorance rather than malice.
#15161242
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

You supplied a link to the Wikipedia article about Dolezal. She was obviously trying to appropriate the identity of a marginalised person in order to benefit herself. If she did try to use this comparison, it was to justify her behaviour.

The second Wiki article was a (not very good) philosophical defence of Dolezal by another cis white woman. Having said that, Ms. Tuvel seems to have made an honest effort, and her transphobia and racism seem to be unconscious and based on ignorance rather than malice.


Dolezal wasn't the only example. There's the example of Ja Du (born a White male who identifies as Filipina - yes, we're dealing with a transgender identity too!). There's also one of a Black teen who identifies as White and is racist against Blacks.

There's also the case of Martina Big, a German citizen (so no Anglo identity politics crap here), who was born White, identifies as Black and who has gone as far as to have surgery to look like this:

Image

Are they all self-serving in your view? Is Ja Du trying to appropriate the identity of the oppressed gender?

Also, what do you mean about appropriating the identity of a marginalized person for personal benefit? One would think that belonging to a marginalized group provides no benefits whatsoever since they are being oppressed by the wider society - exactly as it used to work when people would try to pass as White during Jim Crow.
#15161257
wat0n wrote:Dolezal wasn't the only example. There's the example of Ja Du (born a White male who identifies as Filipina - yes, we're dealing with a transgender identity too!). There's also one of a Black teen who identifies as White and is racist against Blacks.

There's also the case of Martina Big, a German citizen (so no Anglo identity politics crap here), who was born White, identifies as Black and who has gone as far as to have surgery to look like this:

Image

Are they all self-serving in your view? Is Ja Du trying to appropriate the identity of the oppressed gender?


Please let me know when you have hone through these and find one that supports your claim.

Also, what do you mean about appropriating the identity of a marginalized person for personal benefit? One would think that belonging to a marginalized group provides no benefits whatsoever since they are being oppressed by the wider society - exactly as it used to work when people would try to pass as White during Jim Crow.


She received employment that she would not have otherwise received if she had not lied. Those positions were meant for people who are actually black because their lived experiences would help inform those positions in a way that is beneficial for her employers. Thus, not only was a black person deprived of employment, but the employers were deprived of the diversity benefits they thought they were getting.

I will no longer be discussing the cultural appropriation tangent in this thread, since it is off topic.
#15161261
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please let me know when you have hone through these and find one that supports your claim.


I just gave you a few, perhaps the German one has monetized it (and it would be at a substantial cost in terms of getting surgeries to that effect) but can you prove the others have?

Do you think it's acceptable to look for M-to-F transgender people, check their personal histories and try to see if they have managed to get financial benefits out of their transition? If they did, would you out them?

Pants-of-dog wrote:She received employment that she would not have otherwise received if she had not lied. Those positions were meant for people who are actually black because their lived experiences would help inform those positions in a way that is beneficial for her employers. Thus, not only was a black person deprived of employment, but the employers were deprived of the diversity benefits they thought they were getting.

I will no longer be discussing the cultural appropriation tangent in this thread, since it is off topic.


So what the complaint is about is because (obviously) the clientelistic networks were undermined. Got it.
#15161284
:lol: Trans activists always crack me up when they're opposed to the idea of transracialism but not transgenderism. At least with the former, with effort or maybe none at all, you can probably pass as the race you're pretending to be. The latter group rarely do though, they are often quite clearly men in dresses and make-up or girls that were once known as 'tomboys'. Men pretending to be women are allowed to opt into oppression because TRA billionaire lobbies have captured governments, academia, media and medicine etc. and created a pseudo-reality that a lot of foolish folks support because they think this is a way to be kind, to affirm the thinking of the delusional.

I would've figured transracialism would be much more realistic than transgenderism, particularly because the latter isn't a real thing in the first place; trans or genderism. You cannot transition to the opposite sex and anyone who says you can is a liar.
#15161301
Maybe it's you, @skinster, who is wrong, trying to say there is only 2 genders and there is no transition. Calling people a liar because they don't think like you is a nice Ad Hominem, though. Why don't you try not using this so much in this thread... for a change?

The "opposite" sex might not be the opposite for many people. It might just be a tangent, or a short hormonal move.


Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia
Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary
Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.

For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/vo ... ansphobia/
#15161304
I'd hardly say the scientific consensus is that sex isn't binary, even if there can be variation within each sex. That article is very misleading and it's telling that they narrowly focus on the brain's sex differentiation, a topic that is hardly well understood.

Even worse, some of the papers it cites suggest (and I also don't really buy this since the sample sizes are tiny) that the brains of transgender people may be different from those of cisgender people, regardless of biological sex. That's by itself a problem for obvious reasons.
#15161364
wat0n wrote:I just gave you a few, perhaps the German one has monetized it (and it would be at a substantial cost in terms of getting surgeries to that effect) but can you prove the others have?

Do you think it's acceptable to look for M-to-F transgender people, check their personal histories and try to see if they have managed to get financial benefits out of their transition? If they did, would you out them?


You seem to have forgotten your argument.

You were arguing that these people justified transracialusm through transgenderism.

And now you seem to have forgotten that and are talking about finances.

So what the complaint is about is because (obviously) the clientelistic networks were undermined. Got it.


Oh right, you have this weird and incorrect notion that black people have a clientelistic network to undermine white people.

Since I do not share that incorrect idea, please rethink my argument without adding in your assumptions.
#15161369
Pants-of-dog wrote:You seem to have forgotten your argument.

You were arguing that these people justified transracialusm through transgenderism.

And now you seem to have forgotten that and are talking about finances.


No, I didn't argue that. I said they are both comparable.

Also, you are the one who claims all transracial people are doing so for financial gain. I provided some examples for you to tell me how did they benefit financially from their claim.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Oh right, you have this weird and incorrect notion that black people have a clientelistic network to undermine white people.

Since I do not share that incorrect idea, please rethink my argument without adding in your assumptions.


That's another strawman. I said it's a clientelistic network, which is not and should not be controversial. I never said anything about undermining anyone, and that's not what clientelistic networks are for. They are set up to redistribute rents, in the form of employment positions intended for the clients. I also don't think the NAACP is undermining whites for that matter.

And it's also illegal to consciously discriminate by race in hiring. Why should the NAACP be allowed to get away with it, or worse, be compelled to practice it?
#15161375
wat0n wrote:No, I didn't argue that. I said they are both comparable.


And then I explained why the comparison is a bad one, and you the argued it was actually a good one,

Also, you are the one who claims all transracial people are doing so for financial gain. I provided some examples for you to tell me how did they benefit financially from their claim.


No, this is a strawman.

That's another strawman. I said it's a clientelistic network, which is not and should not be controversial. I never said anything about undermining anyone, and that's not what clientelistic networks are for. They are set up to redistribute rents, in the form of employment positions intended for the clients. I also don't think the NAACP is undermining whites for that matter.

And it's also illegal to consciously discriminate by race in hiring. Why should the NAACP be allowed to get away with it, or worse, be compelled to practice it?


And now we are getting entirely off topic.
#15161380
Pants-of-dog wrote:And then I explained why the comparison is a bad one, and you the argued it was actually a good one,


Correct, because they point towards the same idea of allowing people to see themselves as they wish.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No, this is a strawman.


I see, so why is transracialism fake in your view? You said Dolezal was simply acting out of personal gain, but I provided other examples where this claim seems to be harder to defend.

And you have not answered if transgender people should be subject to the same scrutiny, and be called out if they get financial rewards for their transition.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And now we are getting entirely off topic.


You made a rather silly claim, but whatever. This doesn't negate the fact that transracial identities undermine clientelism based on race, just as transgender identities do the same for clientelism based on sex or gender.
#15161381
wat0n wrote:Correct, because they point towards the same idea of allowing people to see themselves as they wish.


Yes, that was the only similar point.

And you ignored the important differences.

And you have not answered if transgender people should be subject to the same scrutiny, and be called out if they get financial rewards for their transition.


That is because the whole financial gain tangent is off topic.

You made a rather silly claim, but whatever. This doesn't negate the fact that transracial identities undermine clientelism based on race, just as transgender identities do the same for clientelism based on sex or gender.


Again, I am not going to address your weird and incorrect ideas about racial clientelism in this thread.
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