[Puffer Fish]

Are they stealing higher level jobs from Americans and driving down wages?

An interesting story (for those who follow immigration) of the little known OPT program, which has a staggering 411,000 foreign workers here, far exceeding the more common H1-B Visa program.


"The STEM Graduate System Is Broken. Here’s How to Fix It."
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021 ... nd=opinion


excerpts from the article:

"...the U.S. had between 96,000 and 143,000 openings in IT occupations that typically went to candidates with a bachelor’s degree or higher in computer science or engineering, they found. So, OPT participants accounted for anywhere from one-third to one-half of new hires. If you add H-1B candidates, up to two-thirds of openings went to guest workers, according to Salzman."


This is unbelievable. This program needs to be seriously curtailed.


Though that might not be very likely anytime soon. The beneficiaries are the mega rich oligarchs in the information/tech industry that are cozied up with the Democrat Party.


The issue is, they are paying those foreign-born workers much less than it would cost to get an American to get all that education and training and do the job.

On top of that, a lot of these tech industries are in very expensive cities (like San Francisco and San Jose in the Bay Area), and to hire American professionals to do those jobs, you would have to pay them a lot of money, to compensate them for the extremely high costs of rent and housing to live nearby.

I am aware of many stories of people in other states who were offered what seemed like great paying jobs to move to San Francisco, but then when they got there they realized they'd have to be paying more than half their income just to rent a small room in a house together with lots of other people, and even that type of housing accommodation was hard to find.

If it wasn't for foreign skilled workers brought in on a visa, most of these tech companies would probably have to relocate to lower cost of living areas. But the tech company CEOs don't want to do that. They want to live in a city that's trendy, progressive and beautiful.

But as a public policy matter, does it really make sense to allow rich CEO's to have coolie labor, to the detriment of American workers, just so they can live in trendy cities?

[Patrickov]

The U.S. has always been a country built by migrants. I somehow find such seemingly anti-migrant reports nonsense.

To those anti-multi-national-corporation-ers, this is actually a good thing about multi-national corporations -- they do not favour a particular country.

[Politics_Observer]

You have to adapt to the market. There seems to be plenty of jobs for Americans in IT, in particularly cyber security for those willing to work and earn the education in it. I know outsourcing has happened before in the past, but even then, if you really want to find a job in IT you still could. As far as I can tell if you can program in Python or have a solid education in cyber security, somebody somewhere is going to want to hire you.

[Puffer Fish]

I think it should be kind of a concerning and a red flag when more than half of a certain type of job in a country goes to foreigners.

The employer just wants to pay the workers less money.

And then fewer people native to that country want to go into the jobs because the wage levels in that field are lower.

The insidious thing is that these days it's not just a matter of only wage levels but wage levels relative to amount of training/education that is required. They want people who are better trained and an educated but who cost less money.

The white collar segment of the labor force is not immune to the effects of immigration.


Some people don't seem to be able to see how these type of policies are one of the factors that exacerbates the level of inequality in the country.

[Pants-of-dog]

The employer obviously wants to cut costs by hiring the cheapest person with the required skill set. And it benefits the company owners when wages fall for the entire group of prospective employees.

This is how capitalism is supposed to work.

It seems like the only way to keep a decent wage is to find some sort of international solidarity among the working class.

[ThirdTerm]

"...the U.S. had between 96,000 and 143,000 openings in IT occupations that typically went to candidates with a bachelor’s degree or higher in computer science or engineering, they found. So, OPT participants accounted for anywhere from one-third to one-half of new hires. If you add H-1B candidates, up to two-thirds of openings went to guest workers, according to Salzman."

The problem is that average Americans are not smart enough to get a degree in computer science, which is why Google and Apple cannot find enough qualified American workers. The Protect and Grow American Jobs Act (HR 170) ensures that no American is replaced in order to bring in talent from overseas on an H-1B visa. It also hiked the minimum salary of H-1B holders from $60,000 to $90,000. The Trump administration had suspended work visas, including H-1B visas, which was later extended till March 31, 2021.

[Verv]

"...the U.S. had between 96,000 and 143,000 openings in IT occupations that typically went to candidates with a bachelor’s degree or higher in computer science or engineering, they found. So, OPT participants accounted for anywhere from one-third to one-half of new hires. If you add H-1B candidates, up to two-thirds of openings went to guest workers, according to Salzman."


This is unbelievable. This program needs to be seriously curtailed.


Though that might not be very likely anytime soon. The beneficiaries are the mega rich oligarchs in the information/tech industry that are cozied up with the Democrat Party.

The issue is, they are paying those foreign-born workers much less than it would cost to get an American to get all that education and training and do the job.

On top of that, a lot of these tech industries are in very expensive cities (like San Francisco and San Jose in the Bay Area), and to hire American professionals to do those jobs, you would have to pay them a lot of money, to compensate them for the extremely high costs of rent and housing to live nearby.
...

But as a public policy matter, does it really make sense to allow rich CEO's to have coolie labor, to the detriment of American workers, just so they can live in trendy cities?

Simply wonderful OP; I very much agree with your analysis.

The article is a good find and this policy is completely absurd.

If such a system was in place here in South Korea, there would be riots.

The U.S. has always been a country built by migrants. I somehow find such seemingly anti-migrant reports nonsense.

To those anti-multi-national-corporation-ers, this is actually a good thing about multi-national corporations -- they do not favour a particular country.

The US is a country that has always had a lot of immigration because it takes up a huge portion of a large continent and did not even really settle the West, properly speaking, until the beginning of the 20th century (New Mexico & Arizona became states in 1912; Alaska & Hawaii much later). It is true there has been a lot of growth allowing for it, but I think it can really be argued that this era is completely over.

Plenty of Americans are under-employed or work in the gig industry because of H1Bs.

Your last sentence is naive, IMO. No idea why it is good that they do not favor any particular nation and are without loyalty, especially in a world where great powers like China really are destroying democracy & enslaving their own people, and these multinational corporations will have no qualms throwing down with the ChiComs.

[wat0n]

How many American citizens with the necessary training to work in tech are actually unemployed as a result?

I'm on a H1-B, with a tech-related graduate degree and trust me, it's not all that easy to get jobs while requiring a visa. Plenty of businesses only hire citizens because they also take on substantial risks by participating in the program. I know because I was told several times when applying to jobs here.

[Rugoz]

The employer just wants to pay the workers less money.

And employers will only succeed in the short term because every immigrant grows the economy and the demand for jobs. Hence immigration has only a very small effect on wages.

[Puffer Fish]

And employers will only succeed in the short term because every immigrant grows the economy and the demand for jobs. Hence immigration has only a very small effect on wages.

I argued how that's not true in this thread:

The Effect of Population Growth on the Economy
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=179549

[late]

I'd like to see better numbers.

The economy has shrunk, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the real need for foreign talent has also shrunk.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Circumstances change, and it takes a while for the institution to adapt to the new circumstance.

So while I suspect we need to adjust these programs, I don't want to panic.

[late]

Over time with gradual population increase, it is possible for the economy to grow with the increase in population, and for overall living standards to even increase.
But when population growth exceeds economic growth, it can start creating a relative "oversupply" of workers, tipping the balance between labor and capital.
That is probably one of the major causes of increasing inequality (although many on the Left and some Conservatives don't want to see this).

That's what happened to the Boomers. Don't know how old you are, but I'd guess we knew that before you were born.

The devil, and the angel, are in the details. Academic research usually shows an economic benefit to immigration. But too much of anything will turn bad.

What we used to do is welcome foreign students to American schools, many stayed and contributed greatly to the economy. Look at American Nobel winners, then take a look at where they were born..

This is where telling your legislators is important. They need to know what you think, preferably repeatedly. I can guarantee you amazon and google are doing it.

[JohnRawls]

Are they stealing higher level jobs from Americans and driving down wages?

An interesting story (for those who follow immigration) of the little known OPT program, which has a staggering 411,000 foreign workers here, far exceeding the more common H1-B Visa program.


"The STEM Graduate System Is Broken. Here’s How to Fix It."
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021 ... nd=opinion


excerpts from the article:

"...the U.S. had between 96,000 and 143,000 openings in IT occupations that typically went to candidates with a bachelor’s degree or higher in computer science or engineering, they found. So, OPT participants accounted for anywhere from one-third to one-half of new hires. If you add H-1B candidates, up to two-thirds of openings went to guest workers, according to Salzman."


This is unbelievable. This program needs to be seriously curtailed.


Though that might not be very likely anytime soon. The beneficiaries are the mega rich oligarchs in the information/tech industry that are cozied up with the Democrat Party.


The issue is, they are paying those foreign-born workers much less than it would cost to get an American to get all that education and training and do the job.

On top of that, a lot of these tech industries are in very expensive cities (like San Francisco and San Jose in the Bay Area), and to hire American professionals to do those jobs, you would have to pay them a lot of money, to compensate them for the extremely high costs of rent and housing to live nearby.

I am aware of many stories of people in other states who were offered what seemed like great paying jobs to move to San Francisco, but then when they got there they realized they'd have to be paying more than half their income just to rent a small room in a house together with lots of other people, and even that type of housing accommodation was hard to find.

If it wasn't for foreign skilled workers brought in on a visa, most of these tech companies would probably have to relocate to lower cost of living areas. But the tech company CEOs don't want to do that. They want to live in a city that's trendy, progressive and beautiful.

But as a public policy matter, does it really make sense to allow rich CEO's to have coolie labor, to the detriment of American workers, just so they can live in trendy cities?

Supply and demand. There is not enough IT specialists produced in Europe and US to cover the need.

This graph looks pretty similar for EU and US:



And this is including the huge amount of immigration in the sector. IT is still not enough by a large margin. Right now it is not a question of immigrants stealing jobs in the sector but a question of there being specialists at all.

As the joke goes, Yes, Hassan the brain surgeon is stealing your job

[Politics_Observer]

@JohnRawls

If I am a business I am going to legally hire the best IT talent I can hire. I don't care where they are from. That's just getting the best talent you can get. A lot of great IT talent from what I understand comes out of China and the former Soviet Union in addition to Europe.

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls

If I am a business I am going to legally hire the best IT talent I can hire. I don't care where they are from. That's just getting the best talent you can get. A lot of great IT talent from what I understand comes out of China and the former Soviet Union in addition to Europe.

It is an arguable statement due to simple reason that only really good specialists immigrate. But it doesn't talk about the main problem, there is not enough IT specialists to cover all the job needs and the gap is just growing.

[Politics_Observer]

@JohnRawls

Well that's good news for me, because I want to get hired once I earn my graduate degree!

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls

Well that's good news for me, because I want to get hired once I earn my graduate degree!

In my experience only the first year is tough to get hired. Once you got year or some experience in IT then you can get into whatever. Even if you want to go cross field and study something new. Analyst to QA or QA to Dev or Dev to Devops or whatever.

[Politics_Observer]

*delete*

[Politics_Observer]

@JohnRawls

My goal is to get into penetration testing. I might have to get hired on as a System Administrator, move into the job as a Security Administrator and then eventually move into penetration testing after earning some Ethical Hacking credentials such as Certified Ethical Hacker or the OSCP certification. OSCP certification is a certification I especially would like to earn sometime after graduate school. But one thing at a time. Have to get through graduate school.

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls

My goal is to get into penetration testing. I might have to get hired on as a System Administrator, move into the job as a Security Administrator and then eventually move into penetration testing after earning some Ethical Hacking credentials such as Certified Ethical Hacker or the OSCP certification. OSCP certification is a certification I especially would like to earn sometime after graduate school. But one thing at a time. Have to get through graduate school.

As much as I heard penetration testing is a weird field. There is also a disbalance between the so called "blue" and "red" teams. By like a ratio of 20 to 1 in favour of the blue team who are basically the "defence" team or well security admins basically. Most people think of "red" team or offensive "hackers" when they think of penetration testing.