10 killed in Colorado grocery store shooting - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15163809
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, as Julian658 points out, the cartoon is actually anti-racist, and points to the racist attitudes of many on the Left. When initial word of the Colorado shooting spread, much of the Left’s response was “Another mass shooting by a White guy!” And then the heritage of the shooter was revealed, and suddenly the attention shifts from race to gun laws. The simple fact is that the two shootings involve two mentally disturbed—though probably not psychotic—individuals, and neither apparently had anything to do with race. But that’s not how either were initially treated—and is still being treated, in the case of the massage parlor shootings—in spite of the facts (or lack of facts). In both cases assumptions were made by many on the Left based on race in the absence of facts, which can itself be considered racist.


The left ran with the concept that white supremacists hated Asians. The truth is that most of the Asian hate crimes are perpetrated by black people. However, that is not news for the left wing media.
#15163813
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, as Julian658 points out, the cartoon is actually anti-racist, and points to the racist attitudes of many on the Left.


No, not really.

The right does this as a way fo introducing race into the discussion: trying to portray the left as racist against white people.

This is supported by the fact that the only people who brought up the race or religion of the shooter was the right.

When initial word of the Colorado shooting spread, much of the Left’s response was “Another mass shooting by a White guy!”


See, here you are trying to justify this by accusing the left of being racist against white people.

And then the heritage of the shooter was revealed, and suddenly the attention shifts from race to gun laws.


And you see this as evidence that the left is in cahoots with the mainstream media to support a socialist attempt to take away the guns of white people, yes.

This is so unrealistic that I find it odd that so many US citizens believe this.

The simple fact is that the two shootings involve two mentally disturbed—though probably not psychotic—individuals, and neither apparently had anything to do with race. But that’s not how either were initially treated—and is still being treated, in the case of the massage parlor shootings—in spite of the facts (or lack of facts). In both cases assumptions were made by many on the Left based on race in the absence of facts, which can itself be considered racist.


This meme that the shooters were mentally disturbed is also without evidence, just like the persecution complex about race.

This focus on strawmen about what leftists believe is odd. It would make more sense to focus on the actual facts instead of what you think others think about what you think they think.
#15163816
Pants-of-dog wrote:
This meme that the shooters were mentally disturbed is also without evidence, just like the persecution complex about race.


POD the article you quoted stated a range of 8-18% psychosis in mass shooters. Furthermore, it also stated most others mass shooters had a neurosis or drug abuse.

You want to play down the issue of mental illness so you can push the narrative of racism. Don't be so coy POD.
#15163827
@Pants-of-dog

Julian658 wrote:Societal pressures in the USA are much greater than in other Western nations.

Julian658 seems to be saying that the causes of mass shootings in the US are socio-economic; systemic, in other words, and there's nothing to be done.
#15163846
ingliz wrote:@Pants-of-dog


Julian658 seems to be saying that the causes of mass shootings in the US are socio-economic; systemic, in other words, and there's nothing to be done.

I never expected a straw man from you, that is POD's dominion. :eek: :eek:

Growing up in this era as a young man (with average or below average talent) can be difficult for reasons I explained above. The environment is not as forgiving as in the 40s, 50s, or 60s.

As to the solution: My take would be to change cultural values and return to an era where every man has a decent chance to mate with a great woman and have a family. I suspect that happy family men with a stable job and a wife that loves sex do not become mass shooters.
#15163855
Pants-of-dog wrote:If anyone wants to provide actual evidence that the shooter in this case was mentally ill, feel free.

So far, none has been presented.

Family members stated he was paranoid, heard voices, and had hallucinations. I could be wrong I am doing this from memory. We will have to wait until there is an official psychiatric evaluation.

You say the man is not mentally ill. So I ask you..

In your opinion--------what motivated the shooting?
#15163858
Julian658 wrote:My take would be to change cultural values

:lol:

family men

The number of unmarried adults in the US is at a record high of 20 percent.

And it must be hard to stay a family man when 50 percent of first marriages in the United States end in divorce.

Note: The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.

with a stable job

Due to a range of factors, including broad economic forces related to globalization and technological advances, jobs are becoming less secure.

a wife that loves sex

Difficult when only 59 percent of American women say they enjoy sex a great deal. The share of U.S. adults reporting no sex in the past year has reached an all-time high.


:lol:
#15163862
ingliz wrote::lol:


The number of unmarried adults in the US is at a record high of 20 percent.

And it must be hard to stay a family man when 50 percent of first marriages in the United States end in divorce.

Note: The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.


Due to a range of factors, including broad economic forces related to globalization and technological advances, jobs are becoming less secure.


Difficult when only 59 percent of American women say they enjoy sex a great deal. The share of U.S. adults reporting no sex in the past year has reached an all-time high.


:lol:


You are correct. It would be difficult to change society. There was a time when well over 90% of people were married and the divorce rate was quite low. Life was quite simple and could be planned.

Lonely loner type men that have little chance to find a mate and no economic opportunity can become nihilistic. The number of virgin men is growing very rapidly.

We also see nihilism in the inner city, but it is mostly due to low self esteem, anger, violence and lack of opportunity. These men tend to be promiscuous, but somehow also manage to be nihilistic.
#15163877
Pants-of-dog wrote:For those trying to find a cause for this shooting, reading actual sources might help.

Please tell us in one or two sentences. Or provide your sources as to why the mass shooter did what he did.
#15163879
wat0n wrote:^ Also, those trends hold for most of the Western world. Has there been a comparable increase in these incidents elsewhere?


Not really! Europe is not a a rat race. Europeans have a different philosophy: They work because they have to live. Americans live to work.

Dating in Europe remains a bit more traditional. Americans tend to date in parallel whereas European only date one at a time in series. This is less stressful for shy men.


They also have a better social net and still provide work for the not so talented. In Spain I saw men doing incredibly menial work that is done by computers in the USA. They also had men maintaining roads at a much greater rate than in the USA.

Japan is also seeing a lot of loner type men, but so far they are not violent.

There are no easy answers. What do think is going on?
#15163892
Pants-of-dog wrote:I would agree that the ethnicity matters insofar as it disproves a motive of white supremacy, but since white nationalists are not the sole cause of mass shootings, this seems like an odd point to keep harping on.


I don't haver any issues if you say most serial murders or mass shooters are white. If that is what the data says then no big deal. Describing reality should never be considered racist. However, the observations only apply to groups and not to individuals. That is the key.
#15163912
Pants-of-dog wrote:The right does this as a way fo introducing race into the discussion: trying to portray the left as racist against white people.

This is supported by the fact that the only people who brought up the race or religion of the shooter was the right.


Twitter liberals rush to blame Boulder shooting on 'White men' before suspect Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa identified
Liberals on Twitter did not hesitate to condemn "White men" Monday as news broke of a mass shooting at a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, but before the suspect's identity was revealed.

Police identified the suspect on Tuesday as Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa, a 21-year-old Middle Eastern resident of Arvada, Colo. He has been charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder. A motive for the attack has not yet been made public.

However, many so-called "blue check" Twitter users rushed to weigh in on the deadly shooting, specifically focusing on the alleged shooter's race, which they wrongly declared the suspect as "White".

"Extremely tired of people's lives depending on whether a white man with an AR-15 is having a good day or not," Deadspin senior writer Julia DiCaro wrote Monday night.

"It's always an angry white man. always," USA Today "race and inclusion" editor Hemal Jhaveri agreed with DiCaro in a now-deleted tweet. [Jhaveri has since lost her job as a USA Today editor due to that tweet.]

Byline Times global correspondent CJ Werleman shared an image of Alissa being taken into custody and simply declared that he was a "white guy."

"Cue 'mental issues,' 'bad day,' 'parking dispute,' or anything else other than what he most likely is - a white domestic terrorist," Werleman wrongly predicted.

Liberal activist Amy Siskand also noted the fact that the shooter was taken into custody alive, writing "it was almost certainly a white man (again)."

"If he were Black or Brown he would be dead," Siskand added.

Comedian DL Hughley wrote on Tuesday morning, "A white armed mass murderer has a better chance surviving an encounter with the police than a black dude holding a phone!"

Perhaps the most prominent Twitter liberal who got the shooter's race wrong was Meena Harris, niece of Vice President Kamala Harris.

"The Atlanta shooting was not even a week ago. Violent white men are the greatest terrorist threat to our country," Harris erroneously wrote on Monday.

On Tuesday, she deleted the tweet but also raised eyebrows with her correction.

"I deleted a previous tweet about the suspect in the Boulder shooting. I made an assumption based on his being taken into custody alive and the fact that the majority of mass shootings in the U.S. are carried out by white men," Harris tweeted.

There was a similar rush by liberals to declare that last week's deadly shootings at Atlanta-area massage parlors was a hate crime, since six out of the eight victims were Asian-Americans, despite the lack of evidence proving that racism was a motive.


Pants-of-dog wrote:This meme that the shooters were mentally disturbed is also without evidence, just like the persecution complex about race.

Actually, yes, I do hold that someone that believes the proper way to resist sexual temptation is to kill the women that tempt him clearly has mental issues. As for Alissa, his own family and acquaintances have stated that he suffered from paranoid delusions.
#15163921
Doug64 wrote:Twitter liberals rush to blame Boulder shooting on 'White men' before suspect Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa identified


Oh, I see,

Some liberals on Twitter now speak for anyone that you think of as progressive or leftist.

Actually, yes, I do hold that someone that believes the proper way to resist sexual temptation is to kill the women that tempt him clearly has mental issues.


And? Your personal beliefs are not relevant.

As for Alissa, his own family and acquaintances have stated that he suffered from paranoid delusions.


Please provide evidence for this claim. Thanks.
#15163948
ingliz wrote:And I can't see it being White angst when most shooters are middle-class, and the middle classes have nothing to be angsty about. PoD says they are not mentally ill.

With all due respect, I think POD is quite wrong. I'm not up for a research assignment at the moment, but the last time I looked into it, most of the mass shooters were diagnosed or exhibited signs that they were mentally ill and many were on an anti-depressant such as venlafaxine.

I'm not one to shy away from medical texts, and frankly what I found in reading about psychopharmacology as prescribed at the retail level was disturbing. In the 1950s, they didn't really have much for depression except for tricyclic anti-depressants.

The first TCA reported for the treatment of depression was imipramine, a dibenzazepine analogue of chlorpromazine code-named G22355. It was not originally targeted for the treatment of depression. The drug's tendency to induce manic effects was "later described as 'in some patients, quite disastrous'". The paradoxical observation of a sedative inducing mania led to testing with depressed patients.


Later, they developed non-selective beta blockers like Propranolol. However, drugs like that can have serious interactions with blood pressure medications (it's a blood pressure med itself). Now, if you think about Propranolol, it reduces the effect of epinephrine--a neurotransmitter that can lead to anxiety, and in excess for a duration to depression. It was primarily used for coronary artery disease and hypertension, but it was found to have a big effect on anxiety. It's prescribed for stage fright. However, lots of doctors prescribe benzodiazepines to performers. Stage fright is definitely going to be an excess of epinephrine, not an excess of glutamate. Yet, doctors are trained to treat symptoms without necessarily getting into the cause of symptoms. So if a patient speaks of anxiety, they may get a prescription for a benzodiazapine or an SSRI when what they need is a low dose of a beta blocker. Antihistimines like Hydroxazine were shown to have anti-anxiety properties too.

The first major SSRI was developed marketed in 1987--Fluoxetine or Prozac. It was developed after research observed a weak anti-depressant SSRI effect from diphenhydrmine or Benadryl. Since then, there have been countless new SSRI, SNRI and NRIs introduced. In other words, we went from almost no choices to a plethora of treatments. Yet, diagnosis hasn't got any better in my opinion.

Do you have low serotonin? Well than an SSRI might be appropriate. If you have low dopamine, maybe not. If you have high levels of epinephrine, why would an SSRI help? Yet, there aren't really any panel of tests you can take. Doctors don't take your blood or your pee and examine neurotransmitter metabolites nor genotype you and look for genes that may be causing trouble, such as MAOA, COMT, MTHFR, etc.

So since SSRIs don't interact with blood pressure and other medications too much, doctors are encouraged to hand them out like swag at a trade convention.

So what happens if you have someone with a low transcription for MAOA, like a 3-repeat allele and you give them an SSRI because they are anxious and irritable? Could you end up giving them something that leads eventually to a violent manic episode?

That's my theory. Reading a few psychopharmacology books and DSM, I came away from that experience feeling like your family doctor is frankly just guessing.

Julian658 wrote:I agree with POD: Only a small percent of shooters are psychotic which is basically totally nuts and out of touch with reality.

Yes, most are not permanently psychotic, needing Haloperidol or Seroquel. However, it does look a lot like a hypomanic or manic episode. Mania is not always the opposite of depression. Manic people can become quite violent.

wat0n wrote:But even then, even if all shooters are mentally ill in some way, why have shootings increased over time in the US? Has there been an increase in the prevalence of mental illnesses across the board (not just psychosis or psychiatric ones) that could plausibly explain the much greater number of mass shootings?

DSM-IV and even more with DSM-V, doctors are practically encouraged to prescribe anti-depressants.

Julian658 wrote:Up until 1960 most people in the USA were married and had a two parent home. That provides massive stability and avoids the LONER syndrome. The NIHILISM causes this lonely men to commit suicide by cop.

Yes, and with women encouraged to join the workforce, and having no choice if they are single mothers, you have the same effect on human children as the Harry Harlow experiments showed on the effects of maternal deprivation in Rhesus monkeys. Not to worry, doctors are right there with the drugs for you, and if you don't have good insurance, you can always get some meth, ketamine, PCP, or whatever floats your boat off the street. However, I think a lot of these people were legally and clinically medicated.
#15164772
Pants-of-dog wrote:Oh, I see,

Some liberals on Twitter now speak for anyone that you think of as progressive or leftist.

My descriptives were "many on the Left" and "much of the Left." You were the one that went with a categorical denial: " ... the only people who brought up the race or religion of the shooter was the right."

And? Your personal beliefs are not relevant.

They're as relevant as yours, and this is a site for discussion and debate. So tell me why I'm wrong.

Please provide evidence for this claim. Thanks.

You haven't read or seen any of the news reports that interviewed the shooter's family and acquaintances?
#15164779
Doug64 wrote:My descriptives were "many on the Left" and "much of the Left." You were the one that went with a categorical denial: " ... the only people who brought up the race or religion of the shooter was the right."


Okay.

As long as we can see that you mean a few people on Twitter and this number represents a vanishingly small number of people.

They're as relevant as yours, and this is a site for discussion and debate. So tell me why I'm wrong.

You haven't read or seen any of the news reports that interviewed the shooter's family and acquaintances?


Your refusal to provide evidence is noted.

I think there is a misconception about mass shooters in the USA: that they have something wrong with them in terms of mental illness. The percentage of mass shooters who suffer(ed) from delusions is small, like the percentage of people in the general population that suffer from delusions.

Having said that, it would be a good idea for people to discuss how we deal with mental illness.
#15164783
ingliz wrote::lol:


The number of unmarried adults in the US is at a record high of 20 percent.

And it must be hard to stay a family man when 50 percent of first marriages in the United States end in divorce.

Note: The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.


Due to a range of factors, including broad economic forces related to globalization and technological advances, jobs are becoming less secure.


Difficult when only 59 percent of American women say they enjoy sex a great deal. The share of U.S. adults reporting no sex in the past year has reached an all-time high.
:lol:


Hmm @ingliz this might be the real culprit for the mass shootings besides mental issues. I just can't buy that a person killing a lot of random strangers that did nothing to provoke or instigate the shootings is mentally healthy. So I think they ain't all there.

ingliz, I do think the adults who are not having sex and are relatively young? Might be a big factor. They are angry about something. Is it no girlfriend and the dude is desperate? Could be....but the Mesquite Nevada (Las Vegas country music shooting guy had a girlfriend. It could be they are just unable to make real world connections emotionally.

What is your theory ingliz? Was a lack of sexual tension release and pent up sexual frustration driving these crazy men with guns over the edge?

Might be a theory with some validity there somewhere? :lol: :D
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