[Pants-of-dog]

Unless a POC punches a white person due to racist feelings,

This would almost never happen. Black people get cops called on then for bird watching, which then results in these black people dealing with what is literally a life and death situation.

This same set of worries does not affect racist white guys attacking BIPOC people.

or a POC who owns a business refuses to hire white people because of racist feelings,

Because most businesses are owned by white people, and because white people have more social and cultural capital, this is never a problem for white people. Plus, the studies show that everyone is more likely to hire John Smith than Juan Santos or DeJean Swahili.

or a POC waitress treats white customers worse due to racist feelings.

This is also unlikely since this would almost certainly result in complaints to the manager, which would almost certainly result in job loss. The same cannot be said for a white server being rude to BIPOC customers.

[wat0n]

Just because something is less likely, it doesn't mean it never happens.

I would say the racist component of this incident, for instance, is quite evident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Chic ... e_incident

[Pants-of-dog]

Just because something is less likely, it doesn't mean it never happens.

I would say the racist component of this incident, for instance, is quite evident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Chic ... e_incident

Please quote the relevant text. Thanks.

[MadMonk]

@wat0n I was just about to post that same event. Which works in POD's favour as we both thought of one instance from 4 years ago, making the argument of far less likely event than the reverse.

This would almost never happen. Black people get cops called on then for bird watching, which then results in these black people dealing with what is literally a life and death situation.

This same set of worries does not affect racist white guys attacking BIPOC people.

Yes, that is a good motivation for a BIPOC person not to commit a hate-crime against a white person, a deterrent not of equal proportions in many cases if a white person commits a hate-crime against a BIPOC person.

Fear is a great motivator but so is hate, anger and rage.

[Unthinking Majority]

, the studies show that everyone is more likely to hire John Smith than Juan Santos or DeJean Swahili.

Everyone? You could run these hiring studies on businesses owned by every race on a wide scale and they would all or virtually all show a racial bias towards ones own race and biases against certain others. That doesn't make it right, it just means that generally people of all races have a tendency to be tribal and racist.

As for your other points, it still shows that POC can be racist toward white people or any other race.

[Unthinking Majority]

Please quote the relevant text. Thanks.

[Pants-of-dog]

Everyone? You could run these hiring studies on businesses owned by every race on a wide scale and they would all or virtually all show a racial bias towards ones own race and biases against certain others. That doesn't make it right, it just means that generally people of all races have a tendency to be tribal and racist.

Please provide evidence that BIPOC people discriminate against white people in hiring.

As for your other points, it still shows that POC can be racist toward white people or any other race.

How so?

@wat0n

I am not going to watch a video.

Please quote the text from the page you cited. Thanks.

[wat0n]

Please quote the relevant text. Thanks.

No, you don't quote from your sources so I have no reason to oblige. Full reciprocity here.

@wat0n I was just about to post that same event. Which works in POD's favour as we both thought of one instance from 4 years ago, making the argument of far less likely event than the reverse.

Sure, there are also more Whites who can commit hate crimes around because they far outnumber Blacks. That doesn't mean one cannot be racist against Whites as that incident showed.

Yes, that is a good motivation for a BIPOC person not to commit a hate-crime against a white person, a deterrent not of equal proportions in many cases if a white person commits a hate-crime against a BIPOC person.

Fear is a great motivator but so is hate, anger and rage.

I doubt a White person would get away with torturing a disabled Black person and livestreaming it on Facebook, just as the perpetrators didn't get away with it in this case. Usually you'll need some reasonable doubt to be able to get away with it, even more so nowadays that (at least for now) we can assume videos are accurate.

[Unthinking Majority]

I am not going to watch a video.

Please quote the text from the page you cited. Thanks.

"Last week, a white 18-year-old man from suburban Chicago was found walking in the cold, disoriented and bloodied. Four people, all black, had held him against his will for four hours, tied him up, and assaulted him while livestreaming part of it on Facebook.
...
One of his tormentors is seen on the video slapping him, and at one point, someone sliced at his hair and scalp with a knife, cutting him. His captors yelled "F*** Donald Trump, N****! F**** white people, boy!"

Plus calling him an "ashtray", per the video.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch ... ase-racism

[Pants-of-dog]

No, you don't quote from your sources so I have no reason to oblige. Full reciprocity here.

If you are not going to make an effort to support your argument, I can make no effort to address it.

Sure, there are also more Whites who can commit hate crimes around because they far outnumber Blacks. That doesn't mean one cannot be racist against Whites as that incident showed.

If your only argument is that it is almost impossible instead of entirely impossible, okay.

This does not change the fact that institutional and systemic racism makes it so that racism is a problem suffered exclusively or almost exclusively by BIPOC people.

I doubt a White person would get away with torturing a disabled Black person and livestreaming it on Facebook, just as the perpetrators didn't get away with it in this case. Usually you'll need some reasonable doubt to be able to get away with it, even more so nowadays that (at least for now) we can assume videos are accurate.

Well, most cops get away with it. There is a reasonable supposition that Mr. Floyd’s killer will get way with it. Last year, a black man was tortured by two white guys, one of whom was a known white supremacist, and it was not treated as a hate crime.

And for most of US history, white people were able to publicly torture black people.

To this day, I am fairly sure that a white man can rape a black woman and almost certainly get away with it.

———————-

@Unthinking Majority

Can you definitely show that the crime was motivated by racism, or was there merely some opportunistic yelling of racial slurs?

[Unthinking Majority]

No, you don't quote from your sources so I have no reason to oblige. Full reciprocity here.

Yes when faced with evidence contrary to his point his common debate tactic is to try to make his opposition do more work. Talk about bad faith debating to protect the ego.

[Pants-of-dog]

Many people refuse to provide evidence and make me do more work by reading articles and quoting text for them. I do not consider it bad faith arguing.

Usually, it is based on other less malicious reasons.

[wat0n]

If you are not going to make an effort to support your argument, I can make no effort to address it.

Not that it would make any difference, since for you addressing counter evidence means simply denying it.

If your only argument is that it is almost impossible instead of entirely impossible, okay.

This does not change the fact that institutional and systemic racism makes it so that racism is a problem suffered exclusively or almost exclusively by BIPOC people.

And yet that admission that it is indeed possible to be racist against Whites, even in the US, weakens the usual postmodern identity rhetoric.

Well, most cops get away with it. There is a reasonable supposition that Mr. Floyd’s killer will get way with it. Last year, a black man was tortured by two white guys, one of whom was a known white supremacist, and it was not treated as a hate crime.

And for most of US history, white people were able to publicly torture black people.

To this day, I am fairly sure that a white man can rape a black woman and almost certainly get away with it.

Your predictions and unsourced claims are not arguments. I'm also not sure about what torture case involving the White Supremacist you are talking about, so it's hard to have an impression about that. Feel free to add more details, particularly why wasn't it treated as a hate crime.

Can you definitely show that the crime was motivated by racism, or was there merely some opportunistic yelling of racial slurs?

Can you do the same with each and every case you were referring to above?

Or when we're talking about systemic racism, motivations don't matter but now that we're talking about an incident where some mentally disabled White person was tortured and, while doing so, the perpetrators livestreamed themselves engaging in racially charged speech they absolutely do?

[Pants-of-dog]

Not that it would make any difference, since for you addressing counter evidence means simply denying it.

These little comments about me are not relevant. I hope you understand why I will ignore them form now on.

And yet that admission that it is indeed possible to be racist against Whites, even in the US, weakens the usual postmodern identity rhetoric.

Your opinion about the strength of rhetoric is not relevant.

Your predictions and unsourced claims are not arguments. I'm also not sure about what torture case involving the White Supremacist you are talking about, so it's hard to have an impression about that. Feel free to add more details, particularly why wasn't it treated as a hate crime.

i am not sure what argument you are trying to make.

Can you do the same with each and every case you were referring to above?

Or when we're talking about systemic racism, motivations don't matter but now that we're talking about an incident where some mentally disabled White person was tortured and, while doing so, the perpetrators livestreamed themselves engaging in racially charged speech they absolutely do?

At this point, I think it would be good to step back and for you to clarify what exactly it is you are arguing. Thanks.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog I think my arguments are quite clear here. It's good to see you were forced to concede on the usual "it's impossible to be racist against Whites in the US" stuff. Little by little, we can go back to making less extreme claims.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

Since you have no argument, this is probably done. Have a good one.

Edit:

So, on the one hand, we have centuries of slavery, public floggings, rape farms, lynchings, and other forms of public and systemic abuse that were or still are supported or tolerated by the state.

And on the other, we have a single attack that may not be racism at all, targeted someone already marginalised, and was roundly condemned by all society.

This is a good example of the difference in discrimination faced by white people compared to BIPOC.