- 09 Apr 2021 16:03
#15165621
No, wat0n, I will never be fooled like you have been with the thought that capitalist foundational principles (the core of what that economic system is based on), is somehow the superior or preferable system. Simply, because logically it is not. If you have unequal power relationships based on who controls the property and who controls the wealth value, and it is never the people who are doing the labor? It will be a system that falls into abusive relationships, where people without the means? Never get justice. Ever. It is that way. It is the same with the slavery system. Capitalist concepts are a step above slavery. But it is far from what humanity can actually accomplish if they do the work involved of taking control of their own labor productive value and democratizing it all. It will no longer be in the hands of a few elitists or a few stockholders who work the system far from the places filled with workers who make the profit work for the capitalists in charge of the money. That system fosters greed, injustice, and callous disregard for the value of workers' labor. The banks and the abusive financial system bands together in a socialist style of solidarity to retain their advantages, they then get together and ask for the taxpayer to bail their asses out in the 2008 meltdown--public money with very few or almost no strings attached. Too big to fail and too big to be fair to the people whom they raided (the government purse) for their speculative schemes and fraud. Bail out the rich and have cutthroat competition and each man or woman for herself or himself (capitalism style) for the working classes and underclasses. No, I don't agree. I will never agree that is the preferable way. It is preferable for the people who have the Greed Value System. I never will. If socialism was for capitalism as you think it is? Why are the Democratic party people sidelining all the socialists? In Spain people don't have that paranoia. Why? It is an older society and it did not have a mass purge of socialism because American capitalism was pressured post WWII and during the Great Depression to CEDE a bunch of things. End child labor, do only an 8 hour workday, paid holiday and widow's pensions, food allotments and public health care, etc back then. It has been eroded one by one until almost nothing remains that is effective. Because the pro capitalists want it ALL. They are not satisfied with being bloated with money, they want IT ALL. They got the Greed Value System and it is DEATH. It makes that Seaspiracy documentary (a horror of greed and lack of ethics driven by $$$) only, and it makes them deny science like climate change. The liberals keep thinking a little greed is the way to go. The problem is that the liberals have not cared deep enough about the issues. They let the pro capitalists keep going because they are doing well running the dominant paradigm in charge and they are two faced. They want to be wealthy, give crumbs to the working people and be the moral leaders. They are not moral leaders. They allowed those banks, abusive people to threaten the public good and the common good and they GAVE IN. The Left that works in real change has to be tough. But by eliminating the hard Left in the USA with their Red Scare tactics and banning the words socialism and communism? They took the only element pressuring the liberals in the middle to TAKE ACTION. It is too little and too late now. Half of the USA is almost full fascist and no longer is going to be trying to preserve democracy. They want to have power via threats and lying and distortions and selling out completely to corporations. And the youth who want socialism are getting stronger. There is going to be a collision for sure. And the PRC and the rest are not dummies, they are waiting in the wings, waiting for the collision to take over the lead of world power. And they are authoritarians. Not the kind of socialists I am. But the core of the authoritarian socialists is DON'T allow the capitalist CEOs and the companies to dictate government power. Don't allow it. Subjugate them. They are state capitalists. The money is going to go to the state. But unlike the Latin American elite pendejos who never invest in their own societies with the gains and bribes from the USA capitalist imperialists? They do invest in their own societies.
That model is going to overtake the USA and it is predicted it will happen around 2035 or a bit longer. When the money being pumped out of workers from China will match all the accumulated wealth of the USA and that is why they are going to move on Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa, and the rest of Asia and get the EU to take their investments. Once that happens? the next challenge for justice is going to be forcing the authoritarians to give freedom to the people and give them absolute rights and free them from monotonous work of horrors. Accept diversity and deal with justice for all. That might take a century or two more. The future. But the Greed is Good shit with the USA and all the bullshit they spouted but were sellouts to anyone who gives them money to their Mamon god? It doesn't look good Wat0n.
I got news for you. The USA is not doing well. They said they had zero ability to change their health care system. They have the ability. They had to release TRILLIONS because of the threat. They have the money to change the system. The problem is obstructionism and lack of political will because the voters are either apathetic, uninterested in activism or they don't know what is happening and or can't get it together. It is urgent. But so many bombardments of BULLSHIT about capitalism is your saviour. It is not. It is the problem big time. But they don't understand it. They never had to live in some shanty town in Santiago, or Mexico City. They were the 'socialism working class' from FDR times. They never made the connection that the socialists from the Great Depression and post WWII are the reason they don't live in Shantyville, Latin American style, due to public housing, taxpayer funded, they have food if they are fired or unemployed, food stamps (taxpayer funded), etc. Unemployment insurance etc, (taxpayer funded) socialism. IN action. They are not as destitute as in Latin America due to taxation to the well off. But all that has been eroded several with war spending, and tax cuts to the rich and corporate. Exxon Mobile, Bezos and others get taxed some years 0 dollars. 0. While middle class Americans get clobbered. But they are LIED to saying the reason they are poor is the dirty Mexican poor=inferior hordes at the border, and the Black drug addicts in Chicago, taking up tax money. LIARS. A bunch of cover up stories to deflect from the real problem. Waste of funds propping up an endless appetite for greed, war and injustice in the system. All of them wanting the law and the government to either disappear or to only serve the plutocracy. You can go and think socialism is worse. It is not. It never has been. But, humans are always holding on to old shit because it is the old shit they know. It is much easier than to try new stuff that might actually improve life. A whole lot of pro slavery people kept saying, "Capitalist carpetbaggers are Yankees who will make your life WORSE. Slavery is preferable. Don't believe them." They lost the war. The capitalists are going to lose the war against authoritarian socialism. Why? Talking lies all day about how Greed is good, and it became some private very powerful corporations paying off politicians who were supposed to be working for the voters and instead were overwhelmed with Greed. They betrayed their Empire (the USA) for bags of gold. They loved their foundational principle more. Greed is Good. Gordon Gekko. Wall Street (1987).
I know you wanted that to be the case. It has to work for you. There are ways of making money honestly with capitalism and the corrupt way. As long as you do it the honest way? You should be good. But, as a whole? That system is not going to be doing things for humanity that are urgent now. Like free universal health care for all, not wasting food because of price manipulations, and dumping practices, and unfair competition, and lack of ethics. If someone and large groups of people don't start paying attention to what is wrong in these systems? The future is not going to be about capitalism vs socialism? It is going to be LIFE versus EXTINCTION. Whether nuclear war, environmental problems overwhelm the earth and we get Ebola, Corona, a new strain, contaminated freshwater that sickens billions, people rioting because they can't make a living under ANY SYSTEM. All these greedy people who don't care need to be removed from power. ASAP.
I am glad you do good work. I would not be loving the banks charging you interest rates. Talented medical researchers should be paid to be in the states. Not be beholden to some bank to pay back what benefits the entire society. They do that to all the young people who come from abroad. And from Chile. The banks did not get involved in the past with student loans or any of that. Now they do. It made them a killing with trillions in loans. Perkins loans were government loans and they were federally regulated in the past. 5% tops interest rates. They talked to some Republican and Democratic sellouts and they changed the rules so now student loans can be as high as predatory lender loans in some states like 17%, 18%, 24%. You would be paying it off for 30 years and never be able to buy your own home. The new working class with college degrees. Never free to be their own bosses. Never having the ability to be backed by the labor of the many who might benefit from their intelligence and hard work for the good of the entire society.
You think a waitress that is a single mother, or a truck driver with an ill family member, or a student with a bunch of debt in graduate school and the child of a bunch of welders and Walmart cashiers would not be fearing failure. All people who work in this system of capitalism fear failure. In Mexico? There is zero guaranteed safety net. Though they are changing....thank God. They are changing for the better...you lose your job and they shut you down for the pandemic. A comer clavos aqui. Nothing. Fear of losing houses, losing the ability to feed your kids. Even the upper middle classes are in the fear mode.
Mexico is a foreign nation to me. I am Puerto Rican and by default a USA citizen. My husband is also Puerto Rican and a USA citizen. By default. He doesn't have to take a test in Mexico City to become a Mexican citizen. I do. He is sixty years old turned sixty one in March. I am fifty five. The Mexican government thinks people who become Mexican citizens after age 60 should not be pressured to take exams and tests or to do things that are hard to accomplish for older folks. They give out visas to Cubans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, and many refugees from all over the world. They are allowed to work if they find sponsors in Mexico. No one earns much here but they earn the same as an average Mexican too. Which is very low wages. If the wages were high? Or adequate? The Mexicans could retain their people. And also give a decent standard of living to the Central Americans doing so badly in their home nations. The Guatemala/Mexican border is not far from my house Wat0n. At all. It is dangerous. Desperate people fleeing desperate circumstances. Thinking they can take on getting a high school/college education, learning English when they can barely read Spanish or Quiche Maya either, and have skills that are not about the information age in the USA. But they think? More resources over there. I got more of a chance? Do they? I fail to see how if the Americans don't even see the peril of greed and lack of investment in science, education, and their own citizens? Burdening them with debt and problems and all because the ones in charge are married to GREED and never satisfied? No. It is a problem. For all of us. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, USA, etc. For all of us. International socialism. Humanist. Not authoritarian. Money, resources, goods and services, are all there for what? To serve society. First. Not greed. La solucion.
Human beings under crisis have danger and opportunity for sure. Danger? It guest worse and no solutions and things deteriorate worse than before the crisis. Opportunity? They learn and come up with solutions. But if the imperialist machine keeps interfering with a very difficult internal negotiation between politicians in power and angry citizens of that nationality working it out to get their needs met? And the solution is death squads and threats and violence and the population grows up with killings, and solutions being about shooting women who talk back to a man or cutting off the head of a union organizer who dares to think paying people $2 dollars a day is exploitation? There will never be any solution.
Hope is about finding the solution after dealing with the failures of human beings who make mistakes.
wat0n wrote:Indeed, but I can tell that neither capitalist sells as much (and as well) as the socialist does.
No, wat0n, I will never be fooled like you have been with the thought that capitalist foundational principles (the core of what that economic system is based on), is somehow the superior or preferable system. Simply, because logically it is not. If you have unequal power relationships based on who controls the property and who controls the wealth value, and it is never the people who are doing the labor? It will be a system that falls into abusive relationships, where people without the means? Never get justice. Ever. It is that way. It is the same with the slavery system. Capitalist concepts are a step above slavery. But it is far from what humanity can actually accomplish if they do the work involved of taking control of their own labor productive value and democratizing it all. It will no longer be in the hands of a few elitists or a few stockholders who work the system far from the places filled with workers who make the profit work for the capitalists in charge of the money. That system fosters greed, injustice, and callous disregard for the value of workers' labor. The banks and the abusive financial system bands together in a socialist style of solidarity to retain their advantages, they then get together and ask for the taxpayer to bail their asses out in the 2008 meltdown--public money with very few or almost no strings attached. Too big to fail and too big to be fair to the people whom they raided (the government purse) for their speculative schemes and fraud. Bail out the rich and have cutthroat competition and each man or woman for herself or himself (capitalism style) for the working classes and underclasses. No, I don't agree. I will never agree that is the preferable way. It is preferable for the people who have the Greed Value System. I never will. If socialism was for capitalism as you think it is? Why are the Democratic party people sidelining all the socialists? In Spain people don't have that paranoia. Why? It is an older society and it did not have a mass purge of socialism because American capitalism was pressured post WWII and during the Great Depression to CEDE a bunch of things. End child labor, do only an 8 hour workday, paid holiday and widow's pensions, food allotments and public health care, etc back then. It has been eroded one by one until almost nothing remains that is effective. Because the pro capitalists want it ALL. They are not satisfied with being bloated with money, they want IT ALL. They got the Greed Value System and it is DEATH. It makes that Seaspiracy documentary (a horror of greed and lack of ethics driven by $$$) only, and it makes them deny science like climate change. The liberals keep thinking a little greed is the way to go. The problem is that the liberals have not cared deep enough about the issues. They let the pro capitalists keep going because they are doing well running the dominant paradigm in charge and they are two faced. They want to be wealthy, give crumbs to the working people and be the moral leaders. They are not moral leaders. They allowed those banks, abusive people to threaten the public good and the common good and they GAVE IN. The Left that works in real change has to be tough. But by eliminating the hard Left in the USA with their Red Scare tactics and banning the words socialism and communism? They took the only element pressuring the liberals in the middle to TAKE ACTION. It is too little and too late now. Half of the USA is almost full fascist and no longer is going to be trying to preserve democracy. They want to have power via threats and lying and distortions and selling out completely to corporations. And the youth who want socialism are getting stronger. There is going to be a collision for sure. And the PRC and the rest are not dummies, they are waiting in the wings, waiting for the collision to take over the lead of world power. And they are authoritarians. Not the kind of socialists I am. But the core of the authoritarian socialists is DON'T allow the capitalist CEOs and the companies to dictate government power. Don't allow it. Subjugate them. They are state capitalists. The money is going to go to the state. But unlike the Latin American elite pendejos who never invest in their own societies with the gains and bribes from the USA capitalist imperialists? They do invest in their own societies.
That model is going to overtake the USA and it is predicted it will happen around 2035 or a bit longer. When the money being pumped out of workers from China will match all the accumulated wealth of the USA and that is why they are going to move on Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa, and the rest of Asia and get the EU to take their investments. Once that happens? the next challenge for justice is going to be forcing the authoritarians to give freedom to the people and give them absolute rights and free them from monotonous work of horrors. Accept diversity and deal with justice for all. That might take a century or two more. The future. But the Greed is Good shit with the USA and all the bullshit they spouted but were sellouts to anyone who gives them money to their Mamon god? It doesn't look good Wat0n.
I reject the alternative you propose because we know it's an even worse system. A better system isn't all THAT different from what the US has - it will have greater taxation and more generous social policies, yes, but the core will not be radically different from what the US is doing nowadays.
I got news for you. The USA is not doing well. They said they had zero ability to change their health care system. They have the ability. They had to release TRILLIONS because of the threat. They have the money to change the system. The problem is obstructionism and lack of political will because the voters are either apathetic, uninterested in activism or they don't know what is happening and or can't get it together. It is urgent. But so many bombardments of BULLSHIT about capitalism is your saviour. It is not. It is the problem big time. But they don't understand it. They never had to live in some shanty town in Santiago, or Mexico City. They were the 'socialism working class' from FDR times. They never made the connection that the socialists from the Great Depression and post WWII are the reason they don't live in Shantyville, Latin American style, due to public housing, taxpayer funded, they have food if they are fired or unemployed, food stamps (taxpayer funded), etc. Unemployment insurance etc, (taxpayer funded) socialism. IN action. They are not as destitute as in Latin America due to taxation to the well off. But all that has been eroded several with war spending, and tax cuts to the rich and corporate. Exxon Mobile, Bezos and others get taxed some years 0 dollars. 0. While middle class Americans get clobbered. But they are LIED to saying the reason they are poor is the dirty Mexican poor=inferior hordes at the border, and the Black drug addicts in Chicago, taking up tax money. LIARS. A bunch of cover up stories to deflect from the real problem. Waste of funds propping up an endless appetite for greed, war and injustice in the system. All of them wanting the law and the government to either disappear or to only serve the plutocracy. You can go and think socialism is worse. It is not. It never has been. But, humans are always holding on to old shit because it is the old shit they know. It is much easier than to try new stuff that might actually improve life. A whole lot of pro slavery people kept saying, "Capitalist carpetbaggers are Yankees who will make your life WORSE. Slavery is preferable. Don't believe them." They lost the war. The capitalists are going to lose the war against authoritarian socialism. Why? Talking lies all day about how Greed is good, and it became some private very powerful corporations paying off politicians who were supposed to be working for the voters and instead were overwhelmed with Greed. They betrayed their Empire (the USA) for bags of gold. They loved their foundational principle more. Greed is Good. Gordon Gekko. Wall Street (1987).
I wish I had been taught how to become rich quick
I know you wanted that to be the case. It has to work for you. There are ways of making money honestly with capitalism and the corrupt way. As long as you do it the honest way? You should be good. But, as a whole? That system is not going to be doing things for humanity that are urgent now. Like free universal health care for all, not wasting food because of price manipulations, and dumping practices, and unfair competition, and lack of ethics. If someone and large groups of people don't start paying attention to what is wrong in these systems? The future is not going to be about capitalism vs socialism? It is going to be LIFE versus EXTINCTION. Whether nuclear war, environmental problems overwhelm the earth and we get Ebola, Corona, a new strain, contaminated freshwater that sickens billions, people rioting because they can't make a living under ANY SYSTEM. All these greedy people who don't care need to be removed from power. ASAP.
I actually work for a nonprofit research organization, a work I actually like, despite the ups and downs that come with any job it's also fulfilling and useful for society (particularly now, because I work on stuff related to vaccinations), has decent pay and great benefits and good environment. And yes, I fear failure - why wouldn't I? I took large debts (for Chilean standards) to come here, and I have to pay them. If I don't, then my family will. So of course I work hard and do my best not to fail. I don't want to burden by 60+ years old mother with my problems. And I also happen to like my job, in all.
I am glad you do good work. I would not be loving the banks charging you interest rates. Talented medical researchers should be paid to be in the states. Not be beholden to some bank to pay back what benefits the entire society. They do that to all the young people who come from abroad. And from Chile. The banks did not get involved in the past with student loans or any of that. Now they do. It made them a killing with trillions in loans. Perkins loans were government loans and they were federally regulated in the past. 5% tops interest rates. They talked to some Republican and Democratic sellouts and they changed the rules so now student loans can be as high as predatory lender loans in some states like 17%, 18%, 24%. You would be paying it off for 30 years and never be able to buy your own home. The new working class with college degrees. Never free to be their own bosses. Never having the ability to be backed by the labor of the many who might benefit from their intelligence and hard work for the good of the entire society.
Care to explain why wouldn't I fear failure?
You think a waitress that is a single mother, or a truck driver with an ill family member, or a student with a bunch of debt in graduate school and the child of a bunch of welders and Walmart cashiers would not be fearing failure. All people who work in this system of capitalism fear failure. In Mexico? There is zero guaranteed safety net. Though they are changing....thank God. They are changing for the better...you lose your job and they shut you down for the pandemic. A comer clavos aqui. Nothing. Fear of losing houses, losing the ability to feed your kids. Even the upper middle classes are in the fear mode.
His story is of course respectable, but I also respect immigrants who just want to work hard, respect the law of the receiving country, try to learn about it and its society and are generally respectful of others. I don't expect immigrants to be super-moral human beings, because I'm not.
Mexico is a foreign nation to me. I am Puerto Rican and by default a USA citizen. My husband is also Puerto Rican and a USA citizen. By default. He doesn't have to take a test in Mexico City to become a Mexican citizen. I do. He is sixty years old turned sixty one in March. I am fifty five. The Mexican government thinks people who become Mexican citizens after age 60 should not be pressured to take exams and tests or to do things that are hard to accomplish for older folks. They give out visas to Cubans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, and many refugees from all over the world. They are allowed to work if they find sponsors in Mexico. No one earns much here but they earn the same as an average Mexican too. Which is very low wages. If the wages were high? Or adequate? The Mexicans could retain their people. And also give a decent standard of living to the Central Americans doing so badly in their home nations. The Guatemala/Mexican border is not far from my house Wat0n. At all. It is dangerous. Desperate people fleeing desperate circumstances. Thinking they can take on getting a high school/college education, learning English when they can barely read Spanish or Quiche Maya either, and have skills that are not about the information age in the USA. But they think? More resources over there. I got more of a chance? Do they? I fail to see how if the Americans don't even see the peril of greed and lack of investment in science, education, and their own citizens? Burdening them with debt and problems and all because the ones in charge are married to GREED and never satisfied? No. It is a problem. For all of us. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, USA, etc. For all of us. International socialism. Humanist. Not authoritarian. Money, resources, goods and services, are all there for what? To serve society. First. Not greed. La solucion.
No one is making them a crime. They are just being made a joke, if you watch the likes of Maduro or those who buy into postmodern crap - and it's totally self-inflicted.
Human beings under crisis have danger and opportunity for sure. Danger? It guest worse and no solutions and things deteriorate worse than before the crisis. Opportunity? They learn and come up with solutions. But if the imperialist machine keeps interfering with a very difficult internal negotiation between politicians in power and angry citizens of that nationality working it out to get their needs met? And the solution is death squads and threats and violence and the population grows up with killings, and solutions being about shooting women who talk back to a man or cutting off the head of a union organizer who dares to think paying people $2 dollars a day is exploitation? There will never be any solution.
Hope is about finding the solution after dealing with the failures of human beings who make mistakes.
La historia de mi amor
se pudiera encontrar
en cada corazón,
en cada soledad.
Silvio Rodriguez
se pudiera encontrar
en cada corazón,
en cada soledad.
Silvio Rodriguez
- By ingliz
- By Puffer Fish
- By wat0n