[Pants-of-dog]

I hate to say it, but that expresses how police usually carry out arrests. It's common in most other countries in the world (bearing in mind most other countries are not white developed countries).

Then police forces all over the world should be abolished.

I will grant that this statement is true.
But one question that could be brought up is what were the expected and foreseeable chances that what officer Chauvin did would result in death?
The officer could not have known exactly how loaded up Floyd was on drugs, that he had the coronavirus, or how vulnerable the suspect was to death.

If someone is choking someone else for almost nine minutes, we can assume that after a few minutes, the person is knowingly killing someone.

One could say that any police confrontation or altercation could endanger someone's life.

Some of this is just part of the job. Mistakes will inevitably get made.

If this is normal, then normal police behaviour is also a threat and should be abolished.

[
As you already know, Chauvin did not consider what he did to be "deadly force".
The chance of death in normal situations is extremely small.

Keep in mind all sorts of things police commonly do carry a very small chance of resulting in death.

You seem to assume that when there's a really big strong man who is high on drugs and will not cooperate, there must be some way for police to take that man into custody without any risk.
I think perhaps you need to reexamine that premise.

While this case may not have been exactly or clearly that, it is somewhat of a grey zone, I believe.

Not really. Again choking someone for almost nine minutes is clearly intentional killing.

[Puffer Fish]

Not really. Again choking someone for almost nine minutes is clearly intentional killing.

You seem to be committing an equivocation fallacy--a logical fallacy.

Your reasoning seems to be based on a characterisation of what happened, rather than the just the cold facts.

The statement you made appears to insinuate a meaning which is not really true.

While it may be technically true in a certain sense of the meaning that Chauvin "choked" him for 9 minutes, it is NOT true that Chauvin decided to choke him in the normal sense of that word.

What you are doing is not actually logical thinking.

You understand this, don't you?

You might also want to look up what a "loaded word" means.

[Pants-of-dog]

You seem to be committing an equivocation fallacy--a logical fallacy.

Your reasoning seems to be based on a characterisation of what happened, rather than the just the cold facts.

The choking was recorded on film. The time is well documented.

The statement you made appears to insinuate a meaning which is not really true.

While it may be technically true in a certain sense of the meaning that Chauvin "choked" him for 9 minutes, it is NOT true that Chauvin decided to choke him in the normal sense of that word.

What you are doing is not actually logical thinking.

You understand this, don't you?

You might also want to look up what a "loaded word" means.

He used a choke hold.

For close to nine minutes.

These are facts.

[Godstud]

@Puffer Fish Arguing for Chauvin's innocence, at this point is silly and pointless.

He was found guilty in court. His appeal failed. He is guilty of the crime he is in prison for. If you don't like that, then go cry somewhere, Snowflake.

Nobody but you pities a convicted murder for getting served up a big plate of Justice.

[Rich]

Then police forces all over the world should be abolished.

Certainly anywhere the Police enforced Lockdown I support their abolition.

[Puffer Fish]

Nobody but you pities a convicted murder for getting served up a big plate of Justice.

The question is, how are police supposed to deal with a man who has a big muscular body size who cannot easily be physically controlled and is under the influence of drugs?

The fact that these are most often black men is not a coincidence. (Not "racism" from police, but rather genetics, body size, suspect's attitude towards police, drug use).

A lot of people ignorantly and naively seem to assume "there must be some sort of way for police to do their job". But it's not that simple.
People are expecting and demanding the unreasonable from law enforcement.

If you had to be the one to actually come up with a strategy for what police should have done in that situation to be able to bring the suspect under control, it wouldn't be so simple, now would it?

If the suspect had managed to get up and ran into traffic and killed himself, police would also be blamed. So it seems like a no-win situation for those law enforcement officers.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

Why did you start a thread about the right to resists arrest, but now argue that Black men do not have that right?

This, combined with your remark about genetics and your refusal to address facts, makes me think you are merely looking for a reason to support the systemic racism that led to the death of Mr. Floyd.

[Puffer Fish]

Why did you start a thread about the right to resists arrest, but now argue that Black men do not have that right?

Those are actually two different issues, but I see how you could get the two confused.

In the separate thread, when I was discussing the legal issue of "resisting arrest", I was referring to the issue of punishing the suspect AFTWERWARDS, after they have already been taken into custody.

I do believe it is possible for two parties to both have legal rights that conflict with each other, in a given situation.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

That seems like an arbitrary distinction that you came up with after the fact.

Also, note that Mr. Floyd had already been arrested and handcuffed by the time his killer started choking Mr. Floyd.

[Godstud]

The question is, how are police supposed to deal with a man who has a big muscular body size who cannot easily be physically controlled and is under the influence of drugs?

At the time of his murder, he was already under control. This is established fact, as evidenced by video and witnesses.

Chauvin had THREE other big muscular officers to assist him, and as he kneeled on the handcuffed victim's neck, he was in complete control of that "big muscular body under the influence of drugs", so you are creating a false narrative.

Why are you arguing against the truth, that is corroborated by facts and evidence for all to see?

The right to life of the person detained is the responsibility of the arresting officer. Once under control, as can be seen for all in the video evidence, Chauvin was responsible for Floyd's safety and life. He ignored that responsibility and deprived Floyd of his life. You can't simply ignore rights and responsibilities because they are inconvenient.

Police already have a great deal of latitude and protection for their job. This is undeniable.

[SpecialOlympian]

You have to be an immensely retarded bootlick to look at the video and see how the police even turned on their own the murder was so brutal, documented, and obvious and think,

"MMMMMmmmmmmm, boot. Nummy nummy boot. I refer to every police Peace Officer as Officer Friendly, like the one who visited my classroom in Kindergarten."

[Godstud]

@SpecialOlympian They are Officer Friendly... until they aren't.

[SpecialOlympian]

Police Peace Officers have the highest rates of domestic abuse of all professions but lets just pretend they're good guys.

Also just skimming the OP and lmao that the premise is that, "Nobody could have foreseen that putting your full body weight through your knee on to someone's neck could kill them." Police Peace Officers are just too stupid to commit murder knowingly!

[Puffer Fish]

You have to be an immensely retarded bootlick to look at the video and see how the police even turned on their own the murder was so brutal, documented, and obvious and think,

You understand that arrests where the subject is resisting very often can be kind of brutal?
This wasn't just an elderly frail old woman who police could easily handle.

If you're going to argue it was brutal because he ended up dying, then that is circular logic. You would be attempting to mix up intention with outcome.

The issue ultimately comes down to the level of appropriateness of what that officer did, in that situation. It's not just a yes or no issue.
And when I mean appropriateness, I am talking about from the perspective of that officer, what he may have been thinking in the moment. Not about what we now know should have been done after the fact. There were various factors that could have justified it, if not in whole then in part, mitigating considerations.

[Fasces]

This wasn't just an elderly frail old woman who police could easily handle.

[Pants-of-dog]

You understand that arrests where the subject is resisting very often can be kind of brutal?
This wasn't just an elderly frail old woman who police could easily handle.

Well, Mr. Floyd was in the ground already had cuffed w(n his murderer choked him for nine minutes.

It would be impossible for Mr. Floyd to have resisted at that point.

If you're going to argue it was brutal because he ended up dying, then that is circular logic. You would be attempting to mix up intention with outcome.

That seems to be what you are arguing.

You are arguing that since he dies, Mr. Floyd must have been brutal.

You are wrong. The videos show that Me, Floyd was lying handcuffed on the ground when his murderer choked him for nine minutes.

The issue ultimately comes down to the level of appropriateness of what that officer did, in that situation. It's not just a yes or no issue.
And when I mean appropriateness, I am talking about from the perspective of that officer, what he may have been thinking in the moment. Not about what we now know should have been done after the fact. There were various factors that could have justified it, if not in whole then in part, mitigating considerations.

What was he thinking for nine minutes while choking Mr. Floyd as Mr. Floyd was lying on the ground handcuffed?

[Puffer Fish]

Well, Mr. Floyd was in the ground already had cuffed w(n his murderer choked him for nine minutes.

It would be impossible for Mr. Floyd to have resisted at that point.

Yes, it was impossible to resist BECAUSE he was being put in that choke restraint hold.

But you are trying to refer to if he was not in that restraint hold that limited air, correct?

I do not believe it would have been impossible for him to get up, if that restraint had not been used. Even though he was in handcuffs and an officer was on top of him. This was a very big muscular strong man. I think that's what the officers may have been worried about.

As I said before, in the event he had managed to roll out and get on his feet, and started running away from the officers into traffic, it would have created both a danger to himself and the officers who would be running after him trying to pull him back.

Yes, he was in handcuffs and that is a very big factor. (Probably officer Chauvin would not even have ended up being criminally charged if the suspect had not been in handcuffs) But for a man that size with that body type, and especially being hysterical under the influence of drugs, handcuffs do not totally immobilize such a man.

At some point I don't believe it's reasonable to expect police to keep having to fight and struggle with a suspect. From the video, it looks like most of the officers were already tired out and exasperated from the struggle trying to get him into the police car.

[Godstud]

@Puffer Fish There were FOUR(count them.. 1, 2, 3, 4) police officers present. Floyd was NOT resisting arrest while handcuffed on the ground. Pretending that Chauvin required that kind of restraint is fucking delusional. I'm sorry if police officers were "exasperated". Maybe they should not be fucking police officers if they are such pansies and can't do the job. I know that if I were in charge of the police department, none of them would work again in such a stressful environment, and I'd hire good people who could.

The facts and the video contradict your bullshit narrative, Puffer Fish.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, it was impossible to resist BECAUSE he was being put in that choke restraint hold.

But you are trying to refer to if he was not in that restraint hold that limited air, correct?

I do not believe it would have been impossible for him to get up, if that restraint had not been used. Even though he was in handcuffs and an officer was on top of him. This was a very big muscular strong man. I think that's what the officers may have been worried about.

As I said before, in the event he had managed to roll out and get on his feet, and started running away from the officers into traffic, it would have created both a danger to himself and the officers who would be running after him trying to pull him back.

Yes, he was in handcuffs and that is a very big factor. (Probably officer Chauvin would not even have ended up being criminally charged if the suspect had not been in handcuffs) But for a man that size with that body type, and especially being hysterical under the influence of drugs, handcuffs do not totally immobilize such a man.

At some point I don't believe it's reasonable to expect police to keep having to fight and struggle with a suspect. From the video, it looks like most of the officers were already tired out and exasperated from the struggle trying to get him into the police car.

But you agree that he was not resisting arrest at the time his murderer choked him for nine minutes.

If you are arguing that he might have been able to resist arrest had he not been choked for nine minutes by his murderer, then you are implicitly agreeing that Mr. Floyd was not resisting arrest at the time of his murder.

[Puffer Fish]

But you agree that he was not resisting arrest at the time his murderer choked him for nine minutes.

That is a little bit of an ambiguous statement.
He was not resisting in that moment, but he had been resisting over a time period that had just stopped a very short time earlier (several seconds).

The issue was, one of the younger inexperienced officers reluctantly allowed Floyd to tumble out of the other side of the police car, even though a consensus had not been reached with the rest of the officers to allow him to do so. The other officers had struggled to get him into the car, and were very frustrated that despite having just struggled with difficulty and being tired out, the suspect was now outside of the car again. It was not really obvious to the other officers that the one officer had allowed Floyd to tumble out of the car.

Keep in mind officer Chauvin did not arrive on the scene until later and had not seen how Floyd was behaving much earlier, before going into total panic when they tried to put him in the police car. So to Chauvin, it may have just looked like a suspect struggling and resisting, being hysterical and making a scene, and trying to escape from the police car after they had managed to get him in. It probably would have seemed to Chauvin that Floyd was just being manipulative when he complained he couldn't breathe, since Chauvin had not been there earlier, and due to the hysterical way Floyd was acting and talking.