[Epicure]

The Patriotic Act.
Yes I apologize for moving it to a new one, but it seems to me that the old(s) one(s) looked kindasorta confused.....
feel free to delete this message/move it wherever you want.

I so had a question? did any of you really read the Patriot act?
Demosthenes, if you did, how can you stand saying what you say..!!??
I mean, this is frightening.
Federal officials can just come, get me, put me in jail, and even withdraw constitutionnal rights from me.

for my own case, i don't even have diplomatic impunity anymore, they can just Put me in long-time jail, without even giving a word to the embassy.

isn't it really frightening?
Look, I live in a family in week ends. The mother of this family used to writte articles for a local newspaper. some of her articles got into the W DC post....well anyway, the articles weren't any kinda pro-bush, if you see what i mean.
According to the patriot act, that more or less states at big range "you are either with us or against us", writting this anti-letter was a terrorist act so therefore, and we don't give a shit for the freedom of speech, they could have arrested her without any respect for the constitutionnal rights...

do YOU think it is fair?
do you think it is normal?
don't you think that the way to think "you are either with us or against us" is extreme?
don't you think it is possible to disagree with bush without wanting to throw planes in buildings?
do you think that freedom of speech and its use is terrorist?
do you think a newsletter against the gov't is terrorist?
do you think that this fuc**** damn newsletter is worth jail???!

[smashthestate]

The patriot act is absolutely unconstitutional, end of story.

[Epicure]

I would still like to hear arguments from its defensers.

[The One.]

I think it's worth it.

After all the patriot act did stopped more than 1200 alqaeda foot soldier...but that was a couple of month ago...

I am a 100% behind privacy and all but these are special times where everyone and anyone could be a god damn muslim extremist that plan on destroying some national symbols...

And beside what exactly are you protecting when you say protecting privacy? That you watch porno after midnight?

Ah yes that could be painful if you're the all-innocent britney spears but you?
[/img]

[Jesse]

I've heard a saying - "Who do you want to be afraid of? Each and every one of your neighbours... or the police?" America was founded with a desire to only fear the neighbour, and they had provisions to assure that it would stay that way, and that you could fight off said neighbour: you could, and were entitled to, own a barrel-loading, blackpowder musket. However, things are moving dramatically towards fear of the police, and the 2nd ammendment is working marvellously - If I were a US citizen, I'm entitled, assuming I haven't previously done anything too bad, to own a .50 sniper rifle, the ones with thermal scopes and a range of 2 kilometres, capable of shooting through the armoured plate of a bullet-proof limousine.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Most people don't bother to have the bottoms of those things bomb proofed, so you can take about 20 bucks of household items and turn that limo into a really expensive coffin.

But people have a problem with guns.

Do you know how impractical a .50 is for day to day use?

Besides, most people can't read a highway sign, let alone site a rifle at a mile.

[Boondock Saint]

Those barret .50's are heavy as hell, a two man job maybe a third for ammo ...

As for the patriot act ...

All freedoms in every nation around the globe are nothing more then images. Freedom does not exist. It is a figment. Any gov't can make anyone disapear at any time and pay no consequences ...

The patriot act only puts into writing what the American people already knew ...

[The One.]

What?

You actually think that the police was that effective before the patriot act?

[Boondock Saint]

You actually think that the police was that effective before the patriot act?

Is this to me?

And are you implying that 'the police' were not effective prior to the patriot act?

And if this was directed at me, please point out where I said anything about the police ... or was this directed at Jesse?

[The One.]

Yes it was directed to you.

I was not implying that the police was not effective.

i was implying that your saying about the patriot act only putting in writing what the american people already knew as totally wrong.

...But it wasn't so clear what you meant either so were you implying that the US is supposedly turning into a fascist state or that the police has too much power?

[Boondock Saint]

...But it wasn't so clear what you meant either so were you implying that the US is supposedly turning into a fascist state or that the police has too much power?

What I was implying is that the US gov't has always had these powers. The gov't was always able to do whatever it wanted whenever it wanted ... its all just a charade.

[Todd D.]

"Those who forsake liberty for the sake of security deserve neither" - Ben Franklin

[Slip, Freudian]

Land of the free?

Maybe back in the day, when Davy Crockett killed Indians and stuff.

Security is however the number 1 thing people expect from their government. If the Patriot Act gives security, then good. But if it limits the freedom of speech, so what? Who wants soldiers critizising their gov't? Who wants to be able to say what he wants whenever he wants? A rare few. Most of them are communist schizophreniacs or "artists" anyways, so who cares? The average citizen of the US of A just wants to be able to get to work and support his/her family. Or so I would believe.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Security is however the number 1 thing people expect from their government.

Says?

[Slip, Freudian]

When security fails, people become restless. If there is no faith in the gov'ts ability to uphold law and order, the society goes into chaos. People start robbing malls and all that.

On the other hand, if the law doesn't have the support of the people, then it shouldn't exist. The problem here is, the police and army are willing to force laws that do not have popular support, most the at least. They feel it is their duty. There really isn't a good, fast mechanism to correct such imperfections. Maybe in the next elections?

[Crazy Brown Guy]

I would like to quote one person.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Says the terrorist.

That's what we call "hypocritical" of him.

"The tree of liberty must
be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is
its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson

Or you want another Franklin?

There are three faithful friends -- an old wife, an old dog, and ready money.

A good capitalist was our Ben.