School Vouchers - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By QatzelOk
#117922
I understand that many people want to raise the level of education in the US and in Canada as well. But school vouchers? This seems a way to help the rich to finance private schools, to pull from funding public schools. The way it will work is all wealthy middle class families who now spend 10 grand on private schooling will get 5 grand back. And this money will come out of public school funding which will slowly rot. Poor people [and there are more and more of them in America] will have a voucher for the worst kind of public schools, which then will be completely devoid of children of varied social backgrounds. That is what this kind of 'choice' provides lower income children.
I have an alternative idea. To make education truly fair, give every newborn child a voucher and let them chose their parents. This will allow for a truly fair meritocracy.
Or, and I know this sounds crazy, chose children who are the smartest to go to the most demanding schools regardless of their parent's income or capacity or willingness to pay. Imagine if the smartest children all got to go the best schools! That's what happens in Canada and in France, where even university is free [France] or cheap [Canada], and enrollment is a function of your marks, not your parents trust fund.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#117923
. But school vouchers? This seems a way to help the rich to finance private schools, to pull from funding public schools.


I don't know what would have given you that idea. The majority of the "Private" schools in question are religious in nature, as the "rich" send their children to schools that discriminate even more. So that basically only the rich get in.

this money will come out of public school funding which will slowly rot.


It's rotted now. Why do you think parents want vouchers? So they don't have to send their children to a horrible public school.

Poor people [and there are more and more of them in America] will have a voucher for the worst kind of public schools, which then will be completely devoid of children of varied social backgrounds.


That's a God damn lie and you know it. There aren't "more poor", the voucher program doesn't deny children a chance to interact with people of varied social programs, it denies them NOTHING. It makes it EASIER for them to be sent to a better school. Their parents are paying less on the public school then they will get in a voucher to send their child to a private school.

[quote]That's what happens in Canada and in France, where even university is free [France] or cheap [Canada], and enrollment is a function of your marks, not your parents trust fund./quote]

There are thousands and thousands of scholarship and funding programs for students in America. They can go to a city college and pay so little as to be meaningless for their education and in some cases get a pretty good one.

Your have no idea how the system works.
By briansmith
#117954
I don't support vouchers because I believe a public education can be successful if, firstly, properly funded, and, secondly, with good teachers, parental guidance, and a strong work ethic in regard to the student.

I have attended public school all my life. I earned the grades and the scores to go to any college in the United States, and I chose a public, state university in a large, diverse city because, firstly, I have always been a part of public education and I wish to continue that, and secondly because I want to have the experiences of being at a diverse, large, public university in a diverse, large city.

This is all just my personal preference, however, but I do believe that there is nothing wrong with public schools in general to warrant a voucher program. More important, in my mind, is the training of good teachers, making teaching jobs more accessible (through the repeal of the No Child Left Behind law which requires teachers have a certification in all subjects they teach, meaning that elementary school teachers that teach all subjects to their students would have to spend more time in college than a law school student for roughly one-quarter of the pay and zero mobility), and encouraging students to work harder in school. Part of the latter is inspiring young people to believe that they have a future if they work hard.

Also, parents must take more responsibility for their children's success in school. I don't understand how deadbeat parents who aren't paying attention and supporting a child in a public school will be the ones best qualified to make the decision to send that same child to a private school, meanwhile continuing to ignore the child and his or her education.

Just my opinion however.
User avatar
By David
#117957
I like the idea of vouchers for everyone. I admit that I don't know whether it's practical or not though. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#117969
I have a better way than school vouchers. Make private schools illegal, thus making sure that all young children have the same fair shot at an education. Why should a 5-year-old pay for the mistakes of his parents? Vouchers sound better than "Screw the poor" but that's what it is. And as for 'not knowing how 'the' system works', Bob, education varies state by state, province by province, country by country. And lots of other countries, including the one I come from, have excellent public schools in the provinces that are willing to fund them. The real cause of your crisis in education is that in America today no one gives a flying GPA for the poor, or children. And education is regarded as a luxury, while cheap oil is a necessity. Fix this socially regressive attitude, and public schooling will come right back.
The Saudis have had a voucher system in place for decades. If you're rich, your children go to private school. If you're not, they go to a Taliban style school in a tent.
Chose which way you want to go. I know the Saudis are better friends now than the French.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#117976
Fix this socially regressive attitude, and public schooling will come right back.


Why bother when private schools work just fine? We are a capitalist friendly country. Why get the government to do what the private sector can do cheaper?

The Saudis have had a voucher system in place for decades.


It's a good thing this isn't Saudi Arabia then.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#117979
Why bother when private schools work just fine? We are a capitalist friendly country. Why get the government to do what the private sector can do cheaper?
They can do schooling cheaper the same way that they can do health care cheaper. US health care is the most expensive in the world, is far from best, and denies 40 million citizens a basic service.
Do you really want to be just capitalist friendly? Why not try 'human friendly' or 'citizen friendly' instead.
User avatar
By David
#117991
QatzelOk wrote:Make private schools illegal, thus making sure that all young children have the same fair shot at an education. Why should a 5-year-old pay for the mistakes of his parents?

Do you favor the removal of babies from their parents at birth and institutionalizing 100% of the population so that everyone gets a fair shot at life? That's not rhetorical. Every possible viewpoint is represented in these forums.

QatzelOk wrote:Vouchers sound better than "Screw the poor" but that's what it is.

I fail to see how giving someone a pass to the private or public school of their choice is detrimental to the poor.

QatzelOk wrote:The real cause of your crisis in education is that in America today no one gives a flying GPA for the poor, or children. And education is regarded as a luxury, while cheap oil is a necessity. Fix this socially regressive attitude, and public schooling will come right back.

And do you have any practical suggestions on how to make this change happen? And policies that you favor for this reason?
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#118009
Do you favor the removal of babies from their parents at birth and institutionalizing 100% of the population so that everyone gets a fair shot at life?
How cruel. To compare public education to pulling babies out of incubators or separating them from their parents. I only want every child to have access to an incubator, and to a great education.
And vouchers are like a shell game. Now you see your tax dollars, now you don't. Taxes should never be used to subsidize rich children's private school tuition. This is so obviously regressive that the medi spin people who made people believe it was good for working Americans must have gotten an award.
If you have a problem with the word 'public', just rename all your schools 'private' and increase your real commitment to children's education. And stop trying to figure out how to pull funding for education. If you wish to stay civilized, that is.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#118018
US health care is the most expensive in the world, is far from best, and denies 40 million citizens a basic service.


Then tell rich Europeans to stop coming here for better care.

They evidently haven't got the message that our health care sucks.

and denies 40 million citizens a basic service.


Why is long term health care a "basic" service? And they aren't denied it. You come into the emergency room with a problem, you will be treated. It's against the law not to treat them.

should never be used to subsidize rich children's private school tuition.


See, that's the difference.

You see them as the rich first. They are children, why shouldn't they get the same benefits as other children?
User avatar
By David
#118025
QatzelOk wrote:How cruel. To compare public education to pulling babies out of incubators or separating them from their parents. I only want every child to have access to an incubator, and to a great education.

It's really only a matter of degree. If you outlaw private schools, you are forcing parents to send their children to an institution that may very well teach them things contrary to what they would teach them. Children "belong" to their parents, not that state. For this reason I am very pro-private school and very pro-homeschooling.

QatzelOk wrote:Taxes should never be used to subsidize rich children's private school tuition. This is so obviously regressive.

How is it regressive? Poor people pay less in taxes but receive the exact same benefit? Along the same lines, I suppose public libraries should only be open to the poor.

QatzelOk wrote:If you have a problem with the word 'public', just rename all your schools 'private' and increase your real commitment to children's education.

Renaming would be the real shell game.

QatzelOk wrote:And stop trying to figure out how to pull funding for education. If you wish to stay civilized, that is.

I favor using the whole of the education budget to be distributed via vouchers, either for everyone or only for the poor. Not one cent less toward education.
By smashthestate
#118037
Vouchers are not a matter of the rich pulling funding from public schooling into private schooling. It's a matter of choice, the way it should be. If the parents of a child don't want to pay for public schooling via taxes, even though their child is in a private school, I say that's ok.

Let them take those tax dollars and spend them where they want to.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#118043
If this was really about 'choice', then the forum would concentrate on how to get poor children into the best private schools. This won't happen with vouchers because the best schools will remain out of reach of the poor. Not only that, but public school funding will dry up because school tax dollars will be thrown toward the rich who don't need the money.
Look, everyone wants their children to have choices, but you give them this by making sure all children, rich and poor, have access to the schools they are intellectually capable of attending.
Even the most socially Darwinist among you must concede that using MONEY as the primary determinant factor in survival or education or health, will lead to a nation of liars and thieves.
Oops. We're soaking in it.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#118052
If this was really about 'choice', then the forum would concentrate on how to get poor children into the best private schools.


"Most" public schools simply want your money and expect your child to follow a higher standard of discipline than he would at a public school. Give them voucher, send child, victory. If you mean the top .00001% of private schools, why bother? There's not enough to go around, and that's kinda what "private" means. What we ARE focusing on is sending them to BETTER schools than they have now.

Vouchers work for that.

Not only that, but public school funding will dry up because school tax dollars will be thrown toward the rich who don't need the money.


Good. The public school system is a PC farce that deserves to die if it can't adapt.

Even the most socially Darwinist among you must concede that using MONEY as the primary determinant factor in survival or education or health, will lead to a nation of liars and thieves.


Why?

All liars and thieves know you need someone making money to steal from. EVERYONE can't steal from everyone else.

Oh wait, socialism.

Yeah.
User avatar
By David
#118058
QatzelOk wrote:If this was really about 'choice', then the forum would concentrate on how to get poor children into the best private schools.

It's about giving everyone a chance at a good education.

QatzelOk wrote:This won't happen with vouchers because the best schools will remain out of reach of the poor.

That depends on how much you give them.

QatzelOk wrote:Not only that, but public school funding will dry up because school tax dollars will be thrown toward the rich who don't need the money.

Under my proposal, the amount of money any school receives is directly linked to the number of students it teaches. Where's the problem?

QatzelOk wrote:Look, everyone wants their children to have choices, but you give them this by making sure all children, rich and poor, have access to the schools they are intellectually capable of attending.

Isn't that what my propsal would do? If not, then how not?

QatzelOk wrote:Even the most socially Darwinist among you must concede that using MONEY as the primary determinant factor in survival or education or health, will lead to a nation of liars and thieves.
Oops. We're soaking in it.

And you blame this evil on private schools? :eek:
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#118060
All liars and thieves know you need someone making money to steal from. EVERYONE can't steal from everyone else.
Which takes us back to Iraq...
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#118065
Rebuild, make a democratic capitalist society, everyone profits, fuck the French.

That's the general idea anyways, what were you talking about?

And what does that have to do with school vouchers?

Have you just given up as you can't find an actual argument against helping kids get into better schools?
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#118077
What I meant was, now that Enron, Global Crossing, fake reports on Global Warming, etc. have exposed what a moral cesspool American style cowboy capitalism is, there was no one left to steal from in America so it had to attack another country to steal from. Hideous education reform aimed at screwing the poor and hideous foreign policy aimed at killing the poor are related.
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#118085
Well, whatever you take I want double.

You have tons of evidence for all this yes?

I'm sure you even have a pie chart.
User avatar
By David
#118094
QatzelOk wrote:Hideous education reform aimed at screwing the poor and hideous foreign policy aimed at killing the poor are related.

You really think that's what it's all about? How sad.
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