Thailand's Child Sex Trafficking and Prostitution Problems - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14888968
Yes there are some places in Thailand full of bars with prostitutes (Pattaya, certain streets in Bangkok) but they are really trying to stop child prostitution.
On the other hand, most of Thailand is not like that. I used to take my family often to Hua Hin in the South and didn't see any prostitution there.
In fact, most Thais are prudish but the tourists who come for the night life would not even see those normal Thais.
#14888988
Ter wrote:I used to take my family often to Hua Hin in the South and didn't see any prostitution there.

No and you probably didn't see any of the Temple, rape, child rape, drugs, embezzlement and money laundering, but that doesn't mean it wasn't going on.
#14888993
Atlantis wrote:I once heard a senior Thai Buddhist who said that we shouldn't feel sorry for prostitutes because they have to live out their bad Karma and we can't do anything for them. I don't believe we would hear something like that from Christian dignitaries, no matter how cynical.

I think there are cultural factors that make Thais less sensitive about child prostitution.

Yeah, people don't realize how hardcore of a religion Buddhism is. So many people are like, Buddhism has no sin, you can do whatever you want, just meditate :excited:

Then in the actual Buddhist religious world there are people who seriously mean what you're talking about and it's pretty much always been that way. There are dialogues about compassion of course but it's still a pretty different dynamic and one shouldn't assume these are exactly the same as western dialogues.

If I must, this is another thing that Godstud doesn't understand about Thai "tolerance". Quite a few Thai people are tolerant for very different reasons than a western person would be.

I feel kind of bad since I know what I'm writing will probably set him off, but as someone who has actually studied Buddhism a bit, I think he is sometimes confusing "not giving a shit" with "tolerance".
#14888998
Conservative societies are incredibly tolerant of some things, notably rape of women by their husbands and social superiors, child rape, assault of people by their social superiors, assault of children by adults in authority.

Catholic priests didn't start raping children in the 1950's. They've been doing it for as long as there has been Catholic priests. Its just as long as you didn't do something stupid like raping the child of someone with high social status you would get away with it. The same goes for the Buddhist religious establishment. In Thailand they're back where we were in the 1980's, just starting to open up the cess pit that a traditional agrarian conservative society always is.

However awful as medieval Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism were, even during the Crusades we can see that they were clearly morally superior to Islam. Islam had a level of misogyny all of its own. Islam made medieval Christianity and Buddhism look like varieties of feminism.
#14888999
Rich wrote:Conservative societies are incredibly tolerant of some things, notably rape of women by their husbands and social superiors, child rape, assault of people by their social superiors, assault of children by adults in authority.

Catholic priests didn't start raping children in the 1950's. They've been doing it for as long as there has been Catholic priests. Its just as long as you didn't do something stupid like raping the child of someone with high social status you would get away with it. The same goes for the Buddhist religious establishment. In Thailand they're back where we were in the 1980's, just starting to open up the cess pit that a traditional agrarian conservative society always is.

However awful as medieval Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism were, even during the Crusades we can see that they were clearly morally superior to Islam. Islam had a level of misogyny all of its own. Islam made medieval Christianity and Buddhism look like varieties of feminism.

OK so this is happening. :excited: I just don't see a lot of evidence for child rape in traditional Christian or Buddhist texts (not going to go into Islam since I've studied that religion the least and it's largely about haditha). Specifically in Buddhism, you have X problems because you did Y thing but there is definitely still an encouragement to be compassionate to people who have problems, so I don't see the raping of children fitting into that.

One way to put it might be to say that you're supposed to be compassionate towards them and help them without actually feeling overly "sorry" for them, which might be viewed as a form of the philosophy of personal responsibility as it is sometimes called today.
#14889002
Here is an interesting statistic: in less than a day @Godstud, was able to rack up three rule two violations. :excited:

Just because you live in the wall-street of sex-trafficking doesn't mean you need to get all butt-hurt.

Image

Besides its kinda hard to argue with the statistics, and the fact that my father-in-law had a neighbor here in whitesylvania that ordered a mail-order bride from Thailand does not help my perspective on the matter. :lol:
#14889015
Hong Wu wrote:Yeah, people don't realize how hardcore of a religion Buddhism is. So many people are like, Buddhism has no sin, you can do whatever you want, just meditate :excited:

Then in the actual Buddhist religious world there are people who seriously mean what you're talking about and it's pretty much always been that way. There are dialogues about compassion of course but it's still a pretty different dynamic and one shouldn't assume these are exactly the same as western dialogues.

If I must, this is another thing that Godstud doesn't understand about Thai "tolerance". Quite a few Thai people are tolerant for very different reasons than a western person would be.

I feel kind of bad since I know what I'm writing will probably set him off, but as someone who has actually studied Buddhism a bit, I think he is sometimes confusing "not giving a shit" with "tolerance".


I agree. I have been interested in Buddhism (mostly Mahayana, though) for more than 40 years. I still admire Buddhist philosophy, but I have no illusions about real-life Buddhists. The fact is that irrespective of the teachings in the scriptures, Buddhist fundamentalists can be just a bloodthirsty and vicious as Christian, Islamist, Hindu fundamentalists.

The thing about Buddhist "compassion" and "selflessness" is that it is often an abstract notion, like a Vegan's compassion for animals is abstract and not real. Buddhist fatalism and otherworldlyness make practitioners turn away from worldly affairs.

Hong Wu wrote:OK so this is happening. :excited: I just don't see a lot of evidence for child rape in traditional Christian or Buddhist texts (not going to go into Islam since I've studied that religion the least and it's largely about haditha).

Child abuse is as common among Buddhists and Muslims as it is among Christian priests, especially where celibacy is recommended. The only difference is that Christian priests are under greater scrutiny than religious dignitaries in non-Western societies. Once transparency makes its way in non-Western societies, there will be a deluge of child-abuse cases. Most Muslims consider that there is nothing wrong with a sexual relation between a dependent minor and an adult.

Specifically in Buddhism, you have X problems because you did Y thing but there is definitely still an encouragement to be compassionate to people who have problems, so I don't see the raping of children fitting into that.

Pedophiles don't believe they are raping children. To them it is love and compassion for children. They are quite willing to shower their victims with presents. They believe they are doing the kids a favor.

One way to put it might be to say that you're supposed to be compassionate towards them and help them without actually feeling overly "sorry" for them, which might be viewed as a form of the philosophy of personal responsibility as it is sometimes called today.

That's what I started to explain above, Buddhists don't believe in the "self" yet they spend all their life in "exploring the self." Concern for the suffering of others gets in the way if you are primarily concerned with your own psychological hangups. With the idea of Karma, they have a convenient way of explaining social injustice while relieving them of the need to do something about it. "If I'm well off and others suffer, it just proves that I have good Karma and others have bad Karma." Why be concerned about children being abused if it is all about their bad Karma?
#14889016
Obama's State Department basically characterized Thailand as an exploitative society.
OFFICE TO MONITOR AND COMBAT TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS
Thailand (Tier 3*) is a source, destination, and transit country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking. Victims from neighboring countries, as well as China, Vietnam, Russia, Uzbekistan, India, and Fiji, migrate willingly to Thailand to seek employment, often with the assistance of relatives and community members or through the use of informal recruitment and smuggling networks. There are an estimated two to three million migrant workers in Thailand, most of whom are from Burma. The majority of the trafficking victims within Thailand— tens of thousands of victims, by conservative estimates—are migrants from Thailand’s neighboring countries who are forced, coerced, or defrauded into labor or exploited in the sex trade. A significant portion of labor trafficking victims within Thailand are exploited in commercial fishing, fishing-related industries, low-end garment production, factories, and domestic work; some victims are forced to beg on the streets.

The land of smiles indeed...
#14889022
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Here is an interesting statistic: in less than a day @Godstud, was able to rack up three rule two violations. :excited:

Just because you live in the wall-street of sex-trafficking doesn't mean you need to get all butt-hurt.

Image

Besides its kinda hard to argue with the statistics, and the fact that my father-in-law had a neighbor here in whitesylvania that ordered a mail-order bride from Thailand does not help my perspective on the matter. :lol:

Lol, what the heck is that thing. It looks like a medkit from a game I used to play a lot, XCom. I'm not sure who's less dignified in that picture.
#14889025
Atlantis wrote:I agree. I have been interested in Buddhism (mostly Mahayana, though) for more than 40 years. I still admire Buddhist philosophy, but I have no illusions about real-life Buddhists. The fact is that irrespective of the teachings in the scriptures, Buddhist fundamentalists can be just a bloodthirsty and vicious as Christian, Islamist, Hindu fundamentalists.

The thing about Buddhist "compassion" and "selflessness" is that it is often an abstract notion, like a Vegan's compassion for animals is abstract and not real. Buddhist fatalism and otherworldlyness make practitioners turn away from worldly affairs.


Child abuse is as common among Buddhists and Muslims as it is among Christian priests, especially where celibacy is recommended. The only difference is that Christian priests are under greater scrutiny than religious dignitaries in non-Western societies. Once transparency makes its way in non-Western societies, there will be a deluge of child-abuse cases. Most Muslims consider that there is nothing wrong with a sexual relation between a dependent minor and an adult.


Pedophiles don't believe they are raping children. To them it is love and compassion for children. They are quite willing to shower their victims with presents. They believe they are doing the kids a favor.


That's what I started to explain above, Buddhists don't believe in the "self" yet they spend all their life in "exploring the self." Concern for the suffering of others gets in the way if you are primarily concerned with your own psychological hangups. With the idea of Karma, they have a convenient way of explaining social injustice while relieving them of the need to do something about it. "If I'm well off and others suffer, it just proves that I have good Karma and others have bad Karma." Why be concerned about children being abused if it is all about their bad Karma?

Good post overall. I'm not sure about the answer to the last question but I think it may be as simple as, the dharma says you should be compassionate... there is of course an apparent contradiction there for those of us who are not initiated. Well, I sort of think I get it but I am not well liked in some circles :excited: So why get into it...
#14889031
Atlantis wrote:That's what I started to explain above, Buddhists don't believe in the "self" yet they spend all their life in "exploring the self." Concern for the suffering of others gets in the way if you are primarily concerned with your own psychological hangups. With the idea of Karma, they have a convenient way of explaining social injustice while relieving them of the need to do something about it. "If I'm well off and others suffer, it just proves that I have good Karma and others have bad Karma." Why be concerned about children being abused if it is all about their bad Karma?

A few quibbles:
- You have to explore the self before you can realise it doesn't exist.
- All suffering is ultimately a psychological experience, you can't help others with their psychological experience until you have fixed your own, otherwise you may as well be Hannibal Lector as a therapist. Physician heal thyself! Moreover it is considerably easier to fix your own mind than fix someone else's, because someone else's mind doesn't belong to you and you can't experience it or control it. Ultimately the path to enlightenment is a solitary one which no one else can walk for you.
- Karma can be better understood as cause and effect rather than justice. Suffering is not divine justice it is simply the consequence of attachment and ignorance. That doesn't mean one can't help those who are suffering but you are not helping anyone if you allow their suffering to become your own also.
#14889054
Rich wrote:No and you probably didn't see any of the Temple, rape, child rape, drugs, embezzlement and money laundering, but that doesn't mean it wasn't going on.


Huuum. Seems to me there's been several of the above on going at the White House
#14889136
skinster wrote:The problem isn't places really, but men.

Well some places cater to this sort of thing. Thailand is a fine example, and so is Costa Rica. How do you think you can change that by somehow prosecuting all men?





#14889201
SolarCross wrote:A few quibbles:
- You have to explore the self before you can realise it doesn't exist.
- All suffering is ultimately a psychological experience, you can't help others with their psychological experience until you have fixed your own, otherwise you may as well be Hannibal Lector as a therapist. Physician heal thyself! Moreover it is considerably easier to fix your own mind than fix someone else's, because someone else's mind doesn't belong to you and you can't experience it or control it. Ultimately the path to enlightenment is a solitary one which no one else can walk for you.
- Karma can be better understood as cause and effect rather than justice. Suffering is not divine justice it is simply the consequence of attachment and ignorance. That doesn't mean one can't help those who are suffering but you are not helping anyone if you allow their suffering to become your own also.


I understand the theory. What I'm saying is that the theory doesn't match the reality of Buddhist societies.

Here we are not talking about the mental discomfort somebody might experience by the thought that children may be abused somewhere, we are talking about the actual abuse and what that does to children.

While the lofty ideals of monastic Buddhism remain ideals never to be attained as long as we are of the flesh, the flesh will make its demands felt even in the earnest practitioner. The Buddhist dignitaries that fail to use their moral authority to stamp out child prostitution become complicit in the crime, just like Japanese Buddhist associations, which were willing participants in the war effort of Japanese militarism, and Burmese Buddhists priests, which are eager participants in the genocide taking place as we are speaking.

When the high ideals of Buddhism fall short of the average human decency in secular society, we are better off without them.

skinster wrote:The problem isn't places really, but men.

What are you proposing skinster? Euthanasia or castration of sex offenders?

I don't believe there is any other way to get rid of deviant sexual behavior in humans.

What we can do, though, is penalize and rigorously prosecute child abuse. Places pedophiles flock to for sex tourism are typically lacking in this respect.
#14889253
The story of the Buddha is clearly the story of a homosexual prince who had no interest in women. The stories of St Paul and the Buddha are both stories of homosexuals, considered immoral degenerates by their communities reinventing themselves as moral saints. Not all monks are homosexuals, but both in the West and the East "celibate life" has been a magnet for homosexuals and paedophiles. The British FWBO (now called Triratna) upset a lot of people because they were open about the homosexual agenda.

Plato is another example of dressing up homosexuality, pederasty and paedophilia as spirituality and purity.
#14889268
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Sounds like another queerspiracy by Rich.

There's no conspiracy none what so ever. I don't doubt St Paul tried to deceive himself. No conspiracy is necessary for Catholic or Buddhist Priests to abuse children. There may well be conspiracies to cover up, the acts of religious predators, as Oxfam and other charities attempt to cover up the more corrupt behaviour of their employers but that's a completely different matter.

No the great attraction of priesthood's for pederasts and peodopihile is precisely they can engage in their activities without engaging in conspiracies and the vastly increased risk of being exposed that that involves.
#14890634
Thailand's former top cop grilled over brothel owner's loan
Somyot Poompanmoung reported to the Department of Special Investigation — Thailand's FBI — after admitting that while he was police chief he borrowed 300 million baht (almost $9.5 million) from Kampol Wirathepsuporn.

It looks like there is a lot of official corruption involved in the Thailand sex industry.


Godstud wrote:I might as well post these facts, as Hong Wu won't.

I think these sources are apocryphal. People generally do not travel to the United States to have sex with prostitutes. Yet, that is common in places like the Netherlands or Thailand.

Prostitution Statistics
If the foregoing were true, there is no way your per-capita states could be correct.

Godstud wrote:@Hong Wu did you note that the USA is in the top 5,for child prostitution, or are you simply ignoring that since it doesn't fit your narrative? :knife:

What constitutes a child? We already know from your opinions on Judge Roy Moore that 16 is basically an infant to you.

Victorious Spolia wrote:Here is an interesting statistic: in less than a day @Godstud, was able to rack up three rule two violations. :excited:

Yes. He seems to be very critical of the United States, but very defensive of more serious social problems in Thailand where he lives.
#14890643
No, @blackjack21, I am just sick of Ignorami who pretend to know a fucking thing about a place they actually know nothing about. If you don't like that, well... suck it.

blackjack21 wrote:We already know from your opinions on Judge Roy Moore that 16 is basically an infant to you.
Well, in Canada, 16 years old is still considered a minor, and our Criminal code views them as children for all intents and purposes. I don't know about the place YOU come from. Incidentally, 14 is the age Roy Moore was accused to fiddling with, but I don't expect you to know that, since you don't engage people in discussion. You merely pick apart their grammar, spelling, and take individual sentences out of context.

Victoribus spoilia wrote:Here is an interesting statistic: in less than a day @Godstud, was able to rack up three rule two violations.
You mean an irrelevant statistic. I don't expect you to understand much, though. You're rather uneducated on worldy issues, and more interested on making personal attacks, as is evidenced by this statement.

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