[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

Enough shit talk. You can bash Trump if you like, or maybe he really deserves whatever you think, but why it's him of all people who's making CCP getting what they deserve, not you?

Similarly, why it had to be Stalin who effectively made sure that the Nazis were brought to justice?

Sometimes I can't help but think being good and just is a facade of incompetence.

I am not shit talking I'm just telling it like it is. And just because the Stalin took the brunt of the fighting in Europe during WWII (though did not fight the Japanese until after Germany was defeated and the US and Australia already had the Japanese defeated by the time the Soviets decided to declare war on Japan) doesn't mean he defeated the Nazis single handedly. Plus, Stalin didn't have to fight a two front war like the US did (and the US still prevailed). He had a lot of money and help from the more economically powerful West through the Lend-Lease program. Plus the West's invasion of France had some brutal terrible fighting just like it was on the Eastern Front. Of course, we didn't waste the lives of our men un-necessarily on near the scale the Soviets did. The Soviets would kill their own men using their Smersh units on the Eastern Front (thus the quote of "victory or death" and "In the Soviet Army, you have to be more brave to retreat than attack") plus a lot of their men were not all armed and they engaged in tactics that got a lot of their men un-necessarily killed because the Soviets simply didn't value the lives of their men as much as the West did. So, obviously, they are going to take more causalities since the Soviets like to throw the lives of their men away un-necessarily. That would happen to anybody who threw the lives of their men away un-necessarily.

[Patrickov]

@Patrickov



I am not shit talking I'm just telling it like it is. And just because the Stalin took the brunt of the fighting in Europe during WWII (though did not fight the Japanese until after Germany was defeated and the US and Australia already had the Japanese defeated by the time the Soviets decided to declare war on Japan) doesn't mean he defeated the Nazis single handedly. Plus, Stalin didn't have to fight a two front war like the US did (and the US still prevailed). He had a lot of money and help from the more economically powerful West through the Lend-Lease program. Plus the West's invasion of France had some brutal terrible fighting just like it was on the Eastern Front. Of course, we didn't waste the lives of our men un-necessarily on near the scale the Soviets did. The Soviets would kill their own men using their Smersh units on the Eastern Front (thus the quote of "victory or death" and "In the Soviet Army, you have to be more brave to retreat than attack") plus a lot of their men were not all armed and they engaged in tactics that got a lot of their men un-necessarily killed because the Soviets simply didn't value the lives of their men as much as the West did. So, obviously, they are going to take more causalities since the Soviets like to throw the lives of their men away un-necessarily. That would happen to anybody who threw the lives of their men away un-necessarily.

My previous statement did not mean that the West made no contribution, but it's true that an equally brutal (if not more) regime ensured that the Nazis fell in the speed we saw, if not without consequences.

I am pointing out that, by comparing this case with the current situation, you guy's rejection of Trump probably prolongs our suffering. I suggest better make him bring down CCP (or even China, for I in fact don't believe the next unified regime either, as long as the Chinese are still bitter of the colonial age without realizing how flawed their system is) before removing him and bringing him to justice. If any preparations on Trump's removal needs be done now so be it -- I don't want you guy to suffer too long as well.

[Rancid]

I've been to the square before. It's very very large. I remember seeing some sort of flag retirement ceremony or something.

[Patrickov]

I've been to the square before. It's very very large. I remember seeing some sort of flag retirement ceremony or something.

They raise their flag there every morning.

[Rancid]

They raise their flag there every morning.

I was there in the evening, so I think I saw them taking it down. This was just about 10 years ago, so my memory is hazy.

[colliric]

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/11152324

I've been to the square before. It's very very large. I remember seeing some sort of flag retirement ceremony or something.

I was there last year myself.

[Rancid]

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/11152324



I was there last year myself.

I wonder what Chinese nationals living abroad thing about this.

[Patrickov]

I wonder what Chinese nationals living abroad thing about this.

Quite some of them are astonishing hypocrites. They flee the regime but rally behind it (by bashing the resistence) once abroad.

[annatar1914]

@Politics_Observer ,

You said;

I am not shit talking I'm just telling it like it is.

Actually, you are shit talking.

And just because the Stalin took the brunt of the fighting in Europe during WWII (though did not fight the Japanese until after Germany was defeated and the US and Australia already had the Japanese defeated by the time the Soviets decided to declare war on Japan) doesn't mean he defeated the Nazis single handedly.

The Soviet Union took on 80% of the Axis military during the Great Patriotic War, and beat them, on both fronts. Few in the West recall the beat down the Red Army gave the Imperial Japanese Army in China/Manchuria/Mongolia, but it happened and was more decisive in the Japanese calculations to surrender than Hiroshima and Nagasaki were.

Plus, Stalin didn't have to fight a two front war like the US did (and the US still prevailed).

One front was plenty, it cost the Soviet Union 27.6 million lives military and civilian, and they still prevailed against the Fascist existential threat.

He had a lot of money and help from the more economically powerful West through the Lend-Lease program.

Such help was actually minimal and a propaganda token that the Allied fight was more united than it really was.

Plus the West's invasion of France had some brutal terrible fighting just like it was on the Eastern Front.

Nothing compared to the hell that was the Eastern Front. That's where the war was really decided.

Of course, we didn't waste the lives of our men un-necessarily on near the scale the Soviets did.

It is an untruth that the Soviets wasted the lives of their men un-necessarily to the degree Western propaganda makes them. Fact is, so many men were lost so close to the frontiers in the early days of Operation Barbarossa that there were very few men left to train green recruits who then had to be thrown in the fight and themselves suffered terrible casualties.

The Soviets would kill their own men using their Smersh units on the Eastern Front

NKVD units, not the ''Smert' Spionam'' (''Death to Spies'') units which were a separate organization. And as you may well know, in wartime there are always military police units in the rear areas looking for deserters and looters, irregular fighters and the like, with immediate court martial powers. The Germans field executed many of their own deserters and we actually did too.

Far more common in reality-the Germans discovered-was that Soviet troops were far from surrendering (after 1942, when they understood the nature of the Fascist beasts), but would actually fight far longer against hopeless odds than any Western army would. A good example would be the defense of the Brest Fortress in 1941.

(thus the quote of "victory or death"

Considering that the German ''Generalplan Ost'' basically called for the extermination of the Russian people, the real story of that quote comes not from fear of the NKVD, but of conquest by Hitler.

and "In the Soviet Army, you have to be more brave to retreat than attack"

A quote based in actual reality would be when Stalin said to the Soviet people; ''not one step back!''. Because retreat meant an even greater loss to the Russians at the hands of a merciless, implacable, and deadly skilled Enemy.

plus a lot of their men were not all armed and they engaged in tactics that got a lot of their men un-necessarily killed because the Soviets simply didn't value the lives of their men as much as the West did. So, obviously, they are going to take more causalities since the Soviets like to throw the lives of their men away un-necessarily. That would happen to anybody who threw the lives of their men away un-necessarily.

All this is simply ignorant untruths.

[Rancid]

Quite some of them are astonishing hypocrites. They flee the regime but rally behind it (by bashing the resistence) once abroad.

My wife is friends with this one woman that moved here from China. She doens't seem to rally behind the Chinese government on stuff like this. I have to believe it's a mixed bag.

I found many of the Chinese enigneers at my job tend to stay quiet about this. However, those that have US citizenship are much more comfortable in commenting/criticizing on the government of their homeland.

[Sivad]

Whatever happened to Tank Man? They probably dragged him off to a gulag dungeon and shocked his balls with jumper cables til his eyeballs popped.

[colliric]

My wife is friends with this one woman that moved here from China. She doens't seem to rally behind the Chinese government on stuff like this. I have to believe it's a mixed bag.

I found many of the Chinese enigneers at my job tend to stay quiet about this. However, those that have US citizenship are much more comfortable in commenting/criticizing on the government of their homeland.

Most Chinese living outside of China in the diaspora are still either Cantonese or Mandarin speaking Taiwanese. And of cause they hate the guts of the CCP. Still very few mainlanders in terms of percentage live in the Diaspora (where they are likely to be surrounded by Cantonese Chinese culture).

Speaking in favour of the CCP in Chinese communities outside of the mainland is likely to end up quite badly for you. Most Chinatowns are still dominated by old Kuomintang-afiliated Chinese communities which set them up and by Hong Kong(or Guangdong/Canton/Macau region) ex-patiots.

Alot of non-chinese do not understand this is the situation of the Diaspora. Mainlanders moving to the Diaspora are likely to be shocked to find out Hong Kong Style Chinese Culture dominates everywhere.

[Rancid]

Most Chinese living outside of China in the diaspora are still either Cantonese or Mandarin speaking Taiwanese. And of cause they hate the guts of the CCP. Still very few mainlanders in terms of percentage live in the Diaspora (where they are likely to be surrounded by Cantonese Chinese culture).

Speaking in favour of the CCP in Chinese communities outside of the mainland is likely to end up quite badly for you. Most Chinatowns are still dominated by old Kuomintang-afiliated Chinese communities which set them up.

Because most Chinese communities outside the mainland are still dominated by Hong Kong(or Guangdong/Canton) ex-patiots in particular.

Alot of non-chinese do not understand this is the situation of the Diaspora.

My understanding is that the Hong Kong contingent in most Chinatowns around the world is changing. A lot of Chinatowns are changing over to Mandarin china towns.. no?

Anyway, I do understand that at least traditionally, most of the immigration out of China to the rest of the world was coming from Hong Kong/Canton, and not the Mandarin speaking mainlanders. I know this, because I'm married to a dirty Hong Konger

[Patrickov]

@annatar1914, with all due respect I was saying that all of us are shittalking because none of us could come up with a workable solution to have the wrongdoers and their beneficiaries punished.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914, with all due respect I was saying that all of us are shittalking because none of us could come up with a workable solution to have the wrongdoers and their beneficiaries punished.

I understand, my friend, in that respect you are most correct. Fact is, I believe in an eternal justice as well as mercy, so I am learning to trust and give people more their due than I might have in the past.

[Politics_Observer]

@annatar1914

The Soviet Union took on 80% of the Axis military during the Great Patriotic War, and beat them, on both fronts. Few in the West recall the beat down the Red Army gave the Imperial Japanese Army in China/Manchuria/Mongolia, but it happened and was more decisive in the Japanese calculations to surrender than Hiroshima and Nagasaki were.

Yeah, the Soviet Navy sure did do a good job in beating the Japanese Navy. By the time the Soviets entered the war against the Japanese the US and Australian soldiers had already taken back considerable territory in the Island hopping campaign plus much of the Navy was destroyed. The US was preparing to invade and occupy the Japanese home islands. A job that would not have fallen on Soviet shoulders. The Soviets played very little if any role in destroying the Japanese Navy and it was the US invasion of the Japanese home islands that the Japanese would have to contend with, not a Soviet invasion of the Japanese home islands.

And even if the Japanese did it was ONLY because the US Navy had the Japanese navy already beaten. If the Japanese Navy was left untouched by the US during World War II, good luck to the Soviets ever getting to the Japanese home islands to occupy them without first going through what would then be a strong Japanese navy. The atomic bombs certainly did play some role in the Japanese calculations to surrender as well as the Soviet entry in the war. But that still doesn't change the fact that by the time the Soviets declared war on the Japanese, the Japanese were already beaten by the US and Australia. The Chinese certainly fought against the Japanese too, but I don't think they made the sort of progress against the Japanese that the US and Australia made.

Nothing compared to the hell that was the Eastern Front. That's where the war was really decided.

I will concede that the siege of Stalingrad was pretty damn bad. And that the Germans committed far more war crimes on the Eastern Front. But aside from the siege of Stalingrad and the vast more war crimes committed by the Nazis on the Eastern Front, the fighting on the Western front was just as brutual and just as terrible as the rest of the battles on the Eastern Front. Our troops engaged in hand to hand, street to street and building to building fighting against the Nazis as well.

It is an untruth that the Soviets wasted the lives of their men un-necessarily to the degree Western propaganda makes them. Fact is, so many men were lost so close to the frontiers in the early days of Operation Barbarossa that there were very few men left to train green recruits who then had to be thrown in the fight and themselves suffered terrible casualties.

I'm not buying that. I don't think it was "propaganda" but just historical fact. The Soviets did waste a lot of their men un-necessarily. It's also true you had a lot of green men who got thrown into the fight though and were killed. At one time, I used to be one of those green men when I was a soldier before I gained more experience. I know what it's like to be one of those green and inexperienced soldiers. It sucks. Well it sucks being a soldier during war time even if you have plenty of experience. It sucks either way you look at it. Stalin's purges of his officer leadership put him in a very very bad position when the Germans invaded though. His army had no good officer leadership because he had killed them all in purges.

NKVD units, not the ''Smert' Spionam'' (''Death to Spies'') units which were a separate organization. And as you may well know, in wartime there are always military police units in the rear areas looking for deserters and looters, irregular fighters and the like, with immediate court martial powers. The Germans field executed many of their own deserters and we actually did too.

That's not exactly the role the Smert played from what I understand. The smert gunned down on their own soldiers when they had to retreat in the face of overwhelming enemy firepower. Which, is probably not the smart or right thing to do to be honest. Their is nothing wrong with retreating in the face of overwhelming enemy firepower. But you are correct, that practice was not limited to just the Soviet Army. It's not well known, but the US Army also engaged in such a practice during the Korean War to force US troops to charge forward into enemy fire.

Still, I don't think that's a good idea or a good practice. In addition, our soldiers on the Western front fought outgunned, outmanned and totally surrounded and still prevailed. This particular battle was the Battle of Bastagne. The Germans demanded our troops to surrender and the commanding general of those troops refused and then they were subjected to some pretty horrible artillery barrages. Their was an excellent TV series that is historically accurate that was made by Steven Spielberg entitled "Band of Brothers."

In one episode, it showed what our troops went through being outnumbered, outgunned and being splattered with massive artillery barrages. At the end of this video, a soldier lights up a cigarette to calm his nerves down after an artillery shell lands next to him that didn't go off. I TOTALLLY understand this guy. I NEVER smoked cigarettes before I went to in Afghanistan, but when I was in Afghanistan, I smoked some cigarettes to keep my nerves calm down. I stopped smoking cigarettes when I got home alive. That was my favorite part of that scene was at the end of the video when the soldier lights up a cigarette to calm his nerves down. That was TOTALLY me dude in Afghanistan. You will have to sign in to your YouTube account to check out this video from the TV series:

[Igor Antunov]

@annatar1914




Yeah, the Soviet Navy sure did do a good job in beating the Japanese Navy. By the time the Soviets entered the war against the Japanese the US and Australian soldiers had already taken back considerable territory in the Island hopping campaign plus much of the Navy was destroyed. The US was preparing to invade and occupy the Japanese home islands. A job that would not have fallen on Soviet shoulders. The Soviets played very little if any role in destroying the Japanese Navy and it was the US invasion of the Japanese home islands that the Japanese would have to contend with, not a Soviet invasion of the Japanese home islands.

And even if the Japanese did it was ONLY because the US Navy had the Japanese navy already beaten. If the Japanese Navy was left untouched by the US during World War II, good luck to the Soviets ever getting to the Japanese home islands to occupy them without first going through what would then be a strong Japanese navy. The atomic bombs certainly did play some role in the Japanese calculations to surrender as well as the Soviet entry in the war. But that still doesn't change the fact that by the time the Soviets declared war on the Japanese, the Japanese were already beaten by the US and Australia. The Chinese certainly fought against the Japanese too, but I don't think they made the sort of progress against the Japanese that the US and Australia made.



I will concede that the siege of Stalingrad was pretty damn bad. And that the Germans committed far more war crimes on the Eastern Front. But aside from the siege of Stalingrad and the vast more war crimes committed by the Nazis on the Eastern Front, the fighting on the Western front was just as brutual and just as terrible as the rest of the battles on the Eastern Front. Our troops engaged in hand to hand, street to street and building to building fighting against the Nazis as well.



I'm not buying that. I don't think it was "propaganda" but just historical fact. The Soviets did waste a lot of their men un-necessarily. It's also true you had a lot of green men who got thrown into the fight though and were killed. At one time, I used to be one of those green men when I was a soldier before I gained more experience. I know what it's like to be one of those green and inexperienced soldiers. It sucks. Well it sucks being a soldier during war time even if you have plenty of experience. It sucks either way you look at it. Stalin's purges of his officer leadership put him in a very very bad position when the Germans invaded though. His army had no good officer leadership because he had killed them all in purges.



That's not exactly the role the Smert played from what I understand. The smert gunned down on their own soldiers when they had to retreat in the face of overwhelming enemy firepower. Which, is probably not the smart or right thing to do to be honest. Their is nothing wrong with retreating in the face of overwhelming enemy firepower. But you are correct, that practice was not limited to just the Soviet Army. It's not well known, but the US Army also engaged in such a practice during the Korean War to force US troops to charge forward into enemy fire.

Still, I don't think that's a good idea or a good practice. In addition, our soldiers on the Western front fought outgunned, outmanned and totally surrounded and still prevailed. This particular battle was the Battle of Bastagne. The Germans demanded our troops to surrender and the commanding general of those troops refused and then they were subjected to some pretty horrible artillery barrages. Their was an excellent TV series that is historically accurate that was made by Steven Spielberg entitled "Band of Brothers." In one episode, it showed what our troops went through being outnumbered, outgunned and being splattered with massive artillery barrages. You will have to sign in to your YouTube account to check out this video from the TV series:

Bro the Japanese navy had nothing to do with it. 1.1 million Japanese troops; its fabled continental Asian army, was crushed by the soviets in a couple of weeks.

And beyond Stalingrad, it was the Germans who were losing more men per battle than the soviets.

[Politics_Observer]

@Igor Antunov

Bro, the Japanese were a fanatical enemy and did not believe in surrendering. They were not going to give up unless there was a credible threat of invasion, which came primarily from the US and could only have been made possible by US and Australian advances against the Japanese in the Island hopping campaign and of course the destruction of the Japanese Navy. The only way for their to be a credible threat for invasion of the Japanese home islands came from the success of Australian and American troops, the success of the US navy in destroying the Japanese navy. Otherwise those million Soviet troops would just be stuck in Manchuria with no way to invade the Japanese home islands.

[Patrickov]

Okay guys, time to stop drifting off to WW2...

[Politics_Observer]

@Patrickov

I agree. I am amazed by the story of Tianamen Square. The bravery of those protestors is inspiring. But what is also highlighted to me was how willing the Chinese government was to turn it's guns on it's own people and how they just erase history from their history books. Chinese kids are not taught about Tianamen Square and even a Chinese man visiting Taiwan and looking at the tank man had no idea who that person was, and he was Chinese. It's spooky to see how the rest of the world knows more about Tianamen Square than most Chinese people.

You know, you look at those people in power in China and those who were in power in China who ordered a massacre of those college kids and you think, "Those people really don't have a soul at all, to order the country's army to turn it's weapons on their own citizens who were unarmed defenseless protestors whose only crime was to ask for freedom and basic human rights....it's just appalling and it makes these guys in power look really evil and have no soul at all." It's spooky and scary that men who have no soul at all can attain power and do this to good people.

It's important that the whole world studies and knows about what happened at Tianamen Square and how the Chinese government essentially erased history from the history books and turned it's guns on it's own people. The reason it's important is because we learn a lot about ourselves and our own countries. Here is a report from CNN:

The events of June 4 have been wiped from the history books in China and any discussion of the crackdown is strictly censored and controlled. Tiananmen is a prime target of the Great Firewall, China's sprawling online censorship apparatus.
Tuesday will be a major test of that system, which activists have spent years attempting to get past by using coded phrases such as "May 35" or "that year." But it's a test that it will likely pass with ease.

In the lead-up to June 4, internet users in China complained about difficulties accessing virtual private networks, a common method of bypassing the firewall, while posts on Chinese social media have been restricted or deleted as companies ramp up censorship during this sensitive period.

June 4 has been nicknamed "internet maintenance day" for the number of websites that go offline around the anniversary, their owners deciding that being dark is safer than accidentally publishing something which could provoke the ire of the authorities.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/03/asia ... index.html