"Macedonia" and Greece.What is really going on ? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By noemon
#13065435
Litwin read here, and notice A1 channel, which is a state channel, and the Professor is employed by Skopjia University.

That is a Skopjian professor of a legitimate academic institution made a study that the Bulgarian dialect of Skopjians was in fact spoken in the antiquity and registered in an Alexandrian decree(Rosetta stone), while this "breakthrough" was reported as fact by the Skopjian national television.

It doesnt get any more explicit than that. Ofc the language he was reading is in fact Egyptian demotic.
By Aekos
#13065727
To follow up on what noemon is saying, that kind of shit even makes it in their Wikipedia, if you can read Slavic you can see here that it talks of the various similarities between "modern Macedonian" and "ancient Macedonian." :lol:

Also my favorite line from the same page:

"A majority of Macedonian and foreign historians that the ancient Macedonians were part of the ethnogenesis process in the making of the modern Macedonian people."

What bullshit...

Oh, and I also found this -

"Burusho legend maintains that they descend from the village of Baltir, which had been founded by a soldier left behind from the army of Alexander the Great—a legend common to much of Afghanistan and northern Pakistan.[5] However, genetic evidence only supports a Balkan genetic component in the Afghan Pashtun,[6] not the Burusho.[7] Nonetheless, in 2008 the Republic of Macedonia organized a visit by Hunza Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Princess Rani Atiqa as descendants of the Alexandran army,[8] part of the post-independence nationalist ideology of the ruling party. They were greeted by the Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and heads of the church. Academics dismiss the idea as pseudoscience, and doubts exist that party leaders actually believe the claims either.[9] This political support of a connection with the Hunza parallels earlier Greek relations with the neighboring Kalash people of Pakistan, who also claim Alexandran ancestry."

:lol:
User avatar
By litwin
#13072169
You know that real Lithuanians never really controlled your duchy? They were either Polonized Lithuanians or Poles, so your nationalism is quite misplaced


...what do you mean with word Lithuanians, anyway no they don´t
you need read more much more about about this subject
what do you know about my "nationalism/-m " i am litw(C/V)in and i see any form of local GDL´s nationalism as a pure treachery

2 noemon
it is nothing special for this region ...usual pseudo-historical Balkan speculation much like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramids and you know Egypt doest´t carry ;) , + do you think this reason is "big" enough for state- blockade? PS Tome Bosevski (MANU) and Prof. Dr. Aristotel Tentov are not the officials of the Republic of Macedonia

"A majority of Macedonian and foreign historians that the ancient Macedonians were part of the ethnogenesis process in the making of the modern Macedonian people."

What bullshit...


no it is not, maybe term ethnogenesis is not really comprehensible for you so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnogenesis
User avatar
By noemon
#13072550
The Bosnian pyramid claims are made by village rumours. Tentov and the other are academics in Skopjia University, and their findings are fact for Skopjians.

http://www.feit.ukim.edu.mk/en/about/ka ... entov.html

Meanwhile whether Bosniaks are delusional as well, does not lend any credence to the delusions of Skopjians nor is it relevant to your challenging on whether Skopjian academic historiography makes such claims which you disputed.

Second, the blockade was not put for that study but for the printing of banknotes with Thessalonica posturing and other clear irredentist moves in the early stages of their independence in '91.

And no "Macedonian" participated in an ethnogenesis of the Skopjian people.

That is pseudo claims like the Rosseta stone hallucinations.

Austrian Ethno-historian writes:

Pro-Serbians vs. Pro-Bulgarians: Revisionism in Post-Socialist Macedonian Historiography by Ulf Brunnbauer wrote:
This institute, which is by far the leading historical research institution in Macedonia, was charged by law to write the history of the Macedonian people and thereby to contribute to the consolidation of the imagined community of Macedonians, to which it has been devoting almost all its efforts ever since...

An important means to make the Macedonians different from the Bulgarians and to buttress Macedonian claims for national and ethnic distinctiveness was to dissociate Macedonian from Bulgarian history and to de-emphasize, or deny any relation between these two peoples. ... They declared the 10th century empire of Samuil, which hitherto had been known only as a Bulgarian state (as such it was also called by contemporary Byzantine sources), a Macedonian affair and began to trace the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians in the time of the Slav's arrival in the Balkans (6 to 7th centuries).


After 1990, historians in the Republic of Macedonia soon settled in accepting communist-time scholarship as the base on which to build further research. The reluctance for a thorough re-evaluation of communist historiography was mainly caused by the fact that the very nation of Macedonia was a result of communist Yugoslav policies, and this historiography had played a major role in the nation-building process. Historians therefore feared that substantial critique of communist historiography and of the Yugoslav period would jeopardize Macedonian national identity. There was also no official effort for a re-evaluation of the communist past. Cracks in this consensus occurred after 1998, when the anti-communist opposition came to power. Revisionist tendencies appeared which portrayed Yugoslavia as a peoples' prison and tried to rehabilitate personalities from Macedonian history, previously kept out of the national pantheon. The main dividing line was the one between historians who kept to the radical dissociation of Macedonian from Bulgarian history, and those who accepted the cultural proximity between these two peoples. Both tendencies, however, shared their basically nationalistic conceptualization of the past.


Read this post carefuly:
http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/view ... 8#p1515068
User avatar
By litwin
#13074667
Tentov and the other are academics in Skopjia University,
not the Republic of Macedonia´s officials, and it is definitely not the official position the Republic of Macedonia,

PS People refer to a trial solution to a problem as a hypothesis — often called an "educated guess" — because it provides a suggested solution based on the evidence. Experimenters may test and reject several hypotheses before solving the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis
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By noemon
#13074837
These are academics of STATE Skopjian University. Their "facts" were reported as breakthrough discovery...through the STATE A1 channel. From an academic perspective this is as official as it gets. "Official" politicians are secondary in history in front of state academics.

They are building a gigantic Alexander Statue in central Skopjia, their official history books claim ancient descent, and they have renamed airports, streets and squares after Alexander the past and current year.

Dont claim crap please, there is nothing more "official" than all that jazz.

And save it with the wiki links on "hypothesis" and "ethnogenesis", if anybody you should read them.

Their findings were not hypothetical, their findings are "facts" for them which followed the hypothesis.
Last edited by noemon on 26 Jun 2009 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
By Aekos
#13074839
They are building a gigantic Alexander Statue in central Skopjia


The Greek Air Force should reduce this to rubble
User avatar
By litwin
#13075675


They are building a gigantic Alexander Statue in central Skopjia,
their official history books claim ancient descent, and they have renamed airports, streets and squares after Alexander the past and current year.



why not?
ancient descent
https://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49a&id=40


The Greek Air Force should reduce this to rubble


reduce this one as well plizzzzzz

Image
User avatar
By noemon
#13075678
So you went from..."they dont claim to be ancients" to "why not claim to be ancients"?

:lol:

A private organization that tells you what you want to hear is not an argument, and that is obvious since what is the dna of antic macedonians? Is it preserved in amber mosquito Jurassic park?

Only little children believe such crap, and only such children find these crap relevant to ethno-genesis and ethnicity.

Moreover, are you in commision for referrals?

In cases, where the finds could not be clearly ascribed to a single culture, the DNA-profiles obtained were compared with the genetic material of people from a region recognized as belonging to the particular people group. This method made the identification of the Celtic profile, among others, possible.


Those who can read, can also understand. ;)
By Aekos
#13075758
https://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49a&id=40


Slav 15 %


I think you should stop posting links to save yourself from further embarrassment
User avatar
By litwin
#13075945
Moreover, are you in commision for referrals?


not yet, do you have another data?
User avatar
By noemon
#13075962
Genetic bullshit do not interest me, they are incapable to participate in ethnic discussion,and whoever mentions them in that context, digs his own grave and advertises his own ignorance, because the science is yet incapable to determine certain ancient ethnic units because it is incapable of isolating and identifying populations with identical codes. There is no antic Macedonian gene, neither a Hellene gene, not a Hunnic gene, and those patterns that stand as such are taken not from ancient graves but from modern people who claim to be so, as the scientists who wrote such bullshit admit themselves.

That the crap you posted are defunct is made more apparent by the total absence of Romans. Where is the Roman participation in say Balkan blood, they found the Phoenician but not the Roman? Please, this is equal to astrology.com

Nothing of what is written in there for anybody whatsoever stands true. Only children are not aware of the deficient nature of these "studies" by private internet companies that claim to tell you. There is an enormous argument that is embodied in the quoted excerpt above, and if you are such that you need it deconstructed, it's futile.

Furthermore, read up on ethnogenesis and ethnicity by some real scholars not private modern mediums, here is what LSC professor Anthony Smith has to say on the matter:

Anthony D. Smith, National Identity, page 28 wrote:It is irrelevant in that ethnies are constituted, not by lines of physical descent, but by the sense of continuity, shared memory and collective destiny, i.e. by lines of cultural affinity embodied in distinctive myths, memories, symbols and values retained by a given cultural unit of population.
User avatar
By litwin
#13076098
i see, DNA is your weakest point

ps http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ancie ... henes.html
“… not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave” – Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31.

He, Demosthenes, said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave. 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by errecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Plutarch

He, Demosthenes, said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave. 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by errecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Plutarch

"While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece."


etc...
User avatar
By noemon
#13076356
i see, DNA is your weakest point


I see you did not learn anything yet, not even the self-evident, don't you worry by the time we are finished here, you will be reformed. ;)

Extra-teaching is required as it seems:

Why do these private idiots baptize the haplogroup marker: I2A, as the "antic Macedonian" marker? It is mostly found in Bosnia and Croatia, when did this marker become the mark of an ancient ethnic-unit?

Second, as Smith tells you, these are irrelevant to ethnie, because ask yourself this very simple question, if you have your dna tested and find that you have Swahili dna, will that change your Lithuanian identity? Will that allow you to claim for yourself Swahili customs and to expand it; will that allow Lithuanians as a nation to appropriate Swahili heritage?

Now do take some time to work these questions on your head before you make any more.

As for Demosthenes and Philipp, your ignorance matches your chilidishness.:

Demosthenes, On the False Embassy wrote:
[308] And as for Philip,—why, good Heavens, he was a Greek of the Greeks, the finest orator and the most thorough—going friend of Athens you could find in the whole world.

And yet there were some queer, ill-conditioned fellows in Athens who did not blush to abuse him, and even to call him a barbarian!



Aside from that which is quite explicit, Demosthenes called Aristogeiton, an Athenian citizen(and consider that to be a citizen of Athens both of your parents had to be Athenian)...a "barbarian" as well.

And here is what another Athenian orator had to say about Makedon and Philippo at the exact same time-period:

Isocrates wrote:THE Philippus is the complement of the Panegyricus. As the latter had contained an appeal for united action on the part of the Greeks against Persia, so this calls upon Philip of Macedon to put himself at the head of that movement, and take the command of the combined forces. The speech was commenced in April, B.C. 346, soon after the conclusion of the so-called Peace of Philocrates, and finished before the Phocian campaigns of Philip in July of the same year. Isocrates had previously been engaged upon a letter addressed to Philip (B.C. 347) on the subject of Amphipolis, with the object of bringing about the end of a war ruinous to both the contending parties, in which it was pointed out that the possession of Amphipolis was not of sufficient importance either to Athens or Philip to make it worth fighting about; the conclusion of peace rendered this letter unnecessary. We have the express testimony of Isocrates himself that "the Philippus" was actually sent to the king.

In the first part of the speech Isocrates tells Philip that it is not only his duty to bring about the reconciliation of the Hellenic states, but that it is in his power to do so; this, he says, will bring him great renown, and at the same time put a stop to the calumnies of his enemies.

In the second part he commences by pointing out the ease with which barbarian forces can be overcome, as shown in the case of Cyrus and Clearchus, and the present weakness of the Great King, and appeals to Philip to act up to the glorious deeds of his ancestors, and gain renown for himself and Hellas.



The Argument of the discourse to Philip
By an unknown writer
It should be known that this discourse was written to Philip by Isocrates after the peace which was brought about by the followers of Aeschines and Demosthenes; in consequence of which he took the opportunity to write to him, Philip, as having become a friend of Athens. Under the guise of an eulogy upon him, he exhorts him to reconcile the great Hellenic states which were quarrelling with each other, and to take the field against the Persians. "For it becomes you," he says, "to do this, being an Heraclid and possessed of such power." Now Philip, after receiving and reading the discourse, was not persuaded by its contents, but delayed for a while; but afterwards his son Alexander read the discourse, and fired with enthusiasm, made war against the later Darius, who was also called Ochus. For his proper name was Ochus, but in flattery thc Persians gave him the name of Darius, after his early ancestors.



All these have been said before, you are wasting your time copy/pasting Skopjian bullshit. You can save us time and post all their quotes together so that I address them all, and get it done with. Be my guest and celebrate your ignorance in public.

But before you do that, it is your turn now to address my epigraphic data. How do you reconcile your revisionism on the face of such data?
By Aekos
#13076436
Okay, I think this is a simpler answer than all those walls of text. Let's pretend for a moment that there was a Macedonian (non-Hellenic) race in ancient times. 5% of Macedonia is in FYROM. So that means only people who have a history of living on that 5% (and their relatives) could at all possibly have "Macedonian" blood. Skoplje is 100% Slavic/Illyrian.
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By noemon
#13076445
What you just said is irrelevant as well. If they were Macedonians they would have Macedonian historical memory and records, they would celebrate Macedonian heroes, speak Macedonian and so on, they would have Macedonian customs, the place where such people would find themselves to be is irrelevant. If they were as such, they would be able to be in Hawai and call it "Macedonia". But they have none of that whatsoever, and the heroes they are imposing to themselves the past years are not in their tradition, they simply impose them to themselves, that is, they are not generic.

They however, claim on one hand that their name is geographical, on the other ethnic. They can't seem to decide, and whatever argument they choose to advertise, they fail at both. Its simply a matter of fact that they are the most manufactured nation standing, with an ethnos born on paper, without any revolution or insurrection. And despite what some philosophical nihilists claim that all identities are manufactured, which is somewhat true, there are a lot of constraints in the process and so there are completely manufactured identities but also real identities with some glorious manufactured details for romanticism. What Smith calls ethnic continuity(Greeks, Armenians and Jews), ethnic recurrence(Indians), and nations by design(Skopjians). They celebrate Goce Delchev and Misirkov in their national pantheon along with Alexander. They have broken all records in artificiality.

But who cares about artificiality anyway? That is not something to hold against them, it becomes a problem in so far it frowns upon the others well being. There are other 'nations by design' in Smith's paradigm, but nobody cares precisely because they frown upon nobody.
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By Anothroskon
#13077673
Like I said before, Lithuania is the smelly, hairy and unwashed armpit of Europe. One would think that the people doomed to live there would have enought to occupy their minds that they wouldn't have to resort to Greekbaiting in between rounds of masturbating, but there you go. Personally I put it down to envy on the part of almost-ethnicities like the Lithuanians. As the Byzantinist Robert Browning wrote:

Harrison, Thomas J. (2002). Greeks and barbarians. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-93959-3. Excerpts by Robert Browning p.276
All these differing conceptions were, thanks to this educational tradition, present in the minds of those Greeks who, in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, had to redefine the community to which they belonged in a world of emergent nation-states. Theirs was a complex heritage, perhaps even a damnosa hereditas [fatal inheritance]. But it offered to the Greeks a depth of historical perspective and a range of choice which peoples with a shorter or less distinguished history might well envy.
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By Doomhammer
#13077825
Like I said before, Lithuania is the smelly, hairy and unwashed armpit of Europe.

Lithuanians are Turks now?

By the way, I heard about that book. Is it good, i.e. would you recommend it?
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