[Anothroskon]

Doomhammer, the book is an edited volume so readability varies by contributor but on the whole it's fun to read if you are keen on the subject. Academically they are all top notch so it's not time wasted by any account.

[litwin]

Like I said before, Lithuania is the smelly, hairy and unwashed armpit of Europe.

man one for sure you guys far much smelly, hairy , i was in Greece ... and you never was Europe before 1981 fernand braudel/George Gordon Byron, territories of GDL i was always part of Europe.
u go on personal attack because you are losing this mini war, right?

State Department spokesperson pointed out this on a press conference right after the announcement of the recognition, but added that USA "recognize Macedonia by the name chosen by the Government and people."

If this additional explanation can be understood as recognition by USA to the right a sovereign country to be able to choose its name in a sovereign manner, then USA statements that they will accept any agreed solution for the name which will result from UN negotiations can be interpreted as "ways to comfort" (Greece), or in the frameworks of a real politics in which political goals and legal principles are frequently opposed. Because the right of a certain country for sovereign choice of its name excludes obligations of that country for negotiations with other country. However, USA expressed political will to recognize Macedonia's constitutional name and it stands as a fact;

http://just-macedonia.blogspot.com/

[Anothroskon]

i was in Greece

Yes and then the border police caught up with you and it was back at square one.

[Doomhammer]

Doomhammer, the book is an edited volume so readability varies by contributor but on the whole it's fun to read if you are keen on the subject. Academically they are all top notch so it's not time wasted by any account.

Thanks for that. I might check it out.

[noemon]

That US bollocks of the Lithuano are Bush's legacy and are no secret, everybody remembers the NATO summit, Obama trashed their claims by official decree, US Senate Resolution 300.

Moreover the US State department has been quite explicit about its position on the matter years now:

“The Department [of State] has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This government considers talk of Macedonian ”nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

[Source: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations vol viii,

Washington, D.C., Circular Airgram (868.014/26Dec1944)

"Unjustified demagoguery".

[litwin]

Yes and then the border police caught up with you and it was back at square one.

you are living happy but longly life, right? and yes, your police very very well known around the world...but unfortunately i am not from Iraq

[Benjamin]

I believe that Slavic Macedonians will eventually accept the name Northern Macedonia. And that's how the whole issue will end I hope. It wouldn't be smart to reject the name of Northern Macedonia. It won't get them anywhere. If they keep circling they'll never become member of NATO & EU. If they finally accept the damn name Greece will have no cards left to play. And will have to approve NATO & EU membership of their northern neighbour.

Noemon, you didn't care much about Macedonia untill late 80's and early 90's either. That's the time when you changed names of your squares, streets, airports as well. Especially in the northern part of Greece. Thessaloniki and so on.

It's hard to prove who was who here in our region. So many different ethnicities in such a small place. And too many claims without facts that support them. And too many different empires bringing different religions which affected development of nations severely.

[noemon]

Its not at all hard to know who is who. There are enormous records left by the 2 empires and their bureaucracies in the region. Nihilism and vagueness is the argument of those who have nothing to support their claims.

[Benjamin]

Noemon, it is hard here in former Yugoslavia. Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Serbs and your favourite Slavic Macedonians , all are a mix of numerous ethnicities. We just happen to speak slavic languages cause they have prevailed - assimilated others.

As said, it's easy to make claims. In another thread, a guy claimed that Cyrilic alphabet is Serbian. And we both know that is nonsense.

[Independent_Srpska]

As said, it's easy to make claims. In another thread, a guy claimed that Cyrilic alphabet is Serbian. And we both know that is nonsense.

So, you are notorious liar or you simply can't comprehend? Well, let me caught you lying again....

1.

And why for Christ's sake, Bosnian rullers wrote in Cyrillic???

2.

Also, Cyrilic alphabet is not Serbian. The inventors were not Serbs. Serbs are just one of many nations who adopted Cyrilic alphabet.

3.

Of course not. But the point is in this region Cyrillic alphabet was used in Serb churches and it was taught by Serb priests...not "bosniaks" nonexistent churches nor Roman Catholic churches...

and "this region" refers to Bosnia and Hercegovina as we spoke about Bosnian rulers.....

and now, you , pathetic liar, are saying this:--->

In another thread, a guy claimed that Cyrilic alphabet is Serbian.

Something is seriously wrong with you.....

[Aekos]

Why is there still a debate on whether Slavic Macedonians have any historical basis for their claims?

1.) Slavs starting coming to the Balkans in the 6th century.
2.) Greek Macedonians were thoroughly Hellenized even before the time of Alexander.
3.) Slavic Macedonians speak a Slavic language closely related to Bulgarian with no traces of indigenous "Macedonian" words
4.) Most importantly...FYROM has 5% of the original Macedonia.

/thread

(but not really, cause people like to debate and pseudoscience is fun)

[Independent_Srpska]

1.) Slavs starting coming to the Balkans in the 6th century.

there are some disputes on this subject

[Order]

Greece and FYROM should sign a treaty that FYROM will forever give up all claims to Greek territory and in exchange the Greeks allow them to call themselves Macedonia. Everybody wins, they join the EU and NATO and nobody will even contemplate annexation or land claims anymore. I really can't see what the fuss is all about. Who cares who moved where for what stupid reason, mixed with whom or pounced on some other group. Just let them call themselves whatever they want.

[Dave]

Not gonna happen. Identity matters. I support the Hellenes in their struggle against these Slavic barbarian history thieves.

[Order]

Not gonna happen. Identity matters. I support the Hellenes in their struggle against these Slavic barbarian history thieves.

Sure identity matter but how does it keep Greeks from thinking whatever they want? They know as well as everybody else that Macedonia is not quite Ancient Macedonia. So why bother?

[Dave]

Let me put it this way: how would you feel if someone registered here as "I'm Order" or something?

But I suppose if you have to ask, you'll never understand. It's like those people who don't understand why I like cars with over 500 horsepower.

[Order]

Let me put it this way: how would you feel if someone registered here as "I'm Order" or something?

Amusing that you speak of that. Just a few days ago a new member adopted John Stuart Mill as his avatar, almost exactly mirroring mine. I was a bit worried at first because I thought people might mix us up but then I thought ah whatever...

But I suppose if you have to ask, you'll never understand. It's like those people who don't understand why I like cars with over 500 horsepower.

I sure understand why the Greeks are bothered by it, somebody is appropriating a part of their national legacy and they are pissed, quite obvious and understandable. What I don't understand is why they need to turn it into a major international crisis and try choking a fledgling country in their neighbourhood to death. It is simply stupid and irrational, an overreaction to a relatively small affront, get over it! It simply seems like childish behaviour.

[Dave]

Amusing that you speak of that. Just a few days ago a new member adopted John Stuart Mill as his avatar, almost exactly mirroring mine. I was a bit worried at first because I thought people might mix us up but then I thought ah whatever...

Fortunately for you he turned out to be a Rawlsian.

I sure understand why the Greeks are bothered by it, somebody is appropriating a part of their national legacy and they are pissed, quite obvious and understandable. What I don't understand is why they need to turn it into a major international crisis and try choking a fledgling country in their neighbourhood to death. It is simply stupid and irrational, an overreaction to a relatively small affront, get over it! It simply seems like childish behaviour.

Because identity matters. It's far more important than boring material concerns like the EU. This is about who the Greeks are as a people and 2,500 years of Greek history. To put it in personal terms, think of your last name, which of course isn't just your name--it's your father's name. And his father's name. It's something that's bigger than just yourself and bigger than the here and now.

I used to agree with you, by the way, but found that my views were the result of Northern European chauvinism and bigotry against sloppy Mediterranean nations that I view as lazy and chaotic. After some good explanations by thoughtful Greeks, I came around to their view. I realize that you of course wouldn't share my bias against Mediterranean nations, just saying that you might want to consider their perspective more seriously.

[Independent_Srpska]

What I don't understand is why they need to turn it into a major international crisis and try choking a fledgling country in their neighbourhood to death. It is simply stupid and irrational, an overreaction to a relatively small affront, get over it! It simply seems like childish behaviour.

Well, i have a pretty logical question now --> why wouldn't the Skopje government get over it, and simply give up claims for the name that Greeks dont' approve...? Is their behavior childish, stupid and irrational?

[Aekos]

How about they rename the country Titoland, the people Titoites, and the language Titoese, because without him they'd still be Bulgarians/Serbs.