[Order]

Because identity matters. It's far more important than boring material concerns like the EU. This is about who the Greeks are as a people and 2,500 years of Greek history. To put it in personal terms, think of your last name, which of course isn't just your name--it's your father's name. And his father's name. It's something that's bigger than just yourself and bigger than the here and now.

I used to agree with you, by the way, but found that my views were the result of Northern European chauvinism and bigotry against sloppy Mediterranean nations that I view as lazy and chaotic. After some good explanations by thoughtful Greeks, I came around to their view. I realize that you of course wouldn't share my bias against Mediterranean nations, just saying that you might want to consider their perspective more seriously.

On an abstract level I can understand their feelings but I am not able to feel with them in any meaningful way. It just feels really petty. There are simply no logical foundations for it and I think they should think rationally and overcome their dislike. Or the Macedonians should.
I can't quite see how that is chauvinism.

Well, i have a pretty logical question now --> why wouldn't the Skopje government get over it, and simply give up claims for the name that Greeks dont' approve...? Is their behavior childish, stupid and irrational?

Yes, both countries act totally retarded in that matter. For a country like Greece that claims to have a tradition of 3000 years, it is particularly pathetic though. One would think they would feel quite certain about their identity. It is completely unworthy for a EU member and supposedly "civilised" state to bully its neighbours that way for no real reason. Petty, malicious behavior, like a child.

[noemon]

Pathetic would be Greece doing nothing about it. That would tell the historical record that Greece gives the green light to the claims of Skopjians, historical, ethnic and territorial.

Greece prefers Skopjia than Albania and as such it is in Greek interests to maintain Skopje as a buffer zone. That became even more clear in 2001 when the Albanians revolted and Greece aided FYROM, militaristically and financially.

Your knee-jerk rationalizations are meritless.

Plus, what you claim that everybody knows the true history(.ie the Greek version) is bollocks. This forum alone has required an enormous of time and for "smart" posters as well to settle the issue. People are very liable to fall for half-data. This state of affairs of Greeks having to defend the historical record due to the conversation that the mere existence of the issue creates is enough to grant them reason for their (dis)position.

[Order]

Pathetic would be Greece doing nothing about it. That would tell the historical record that Greece gives the green light to the claims of Skopjians, historical, ethnic and territorial.

As I said, all that could be spelled out in a good old international treaty making clear that they don't have any territorial claims.

Greece prefers Skopjia than Albania and as such it is in Greek interests to maintain Skopje as a buffer zone. That became even more clear in 2001 when the Albanians revolted and Greece aided FYROM, militaristically and financially.

Fantastic, another reason to stop boycotting that state.

Your knee-jerk rationalizations are meritless.

You are trying to construct rationalizations for absolutely irrational behaviour, not me.

Plus, what you claim that everybody knows the true history(.ie the Greek version) is bollocks. This forum alone has required an enormous of time and for "smart" posters as well to settle the issue. People are very liable to fall for half-data. This state of affairs of Greeks having to defend the historical record due to the conversation that the mere existence of the issue creates is enough to grant them reason for their (dis)position.

Even if that was the case, I can't see how the "correct" historic record is worth strangling countries if the potential repercussions such a record could have could be settled in a treaty.

[Aekos]

Even if that was the case, I can't see how the "correct" historic record is worth strangling countries if the potential repercussions such a record could have could be settled in a treaty.

Why doesn't FYROM change its name? Why would they hold to a name (that doesn't even apply to them) so adamantly that they'd get boycotted? It's FYROM being stubborn, Greece isn't to blame.

[Order]

Why doesn't FYROM change its name? Why would they hold to a name (that doesn't even apply to them) so adamantly that they'd get boycotted? It's FYROM being stubborn, Greece isn't to blame.

That doesn't make any sense. Both countries are being stubborn to the same degree. How is Greece less stubborn or to blame than FYROM? After all, they are the ones instituting the boycott.

[Independent_Srpska]

That doesn't make any sense. Both countries are being stubborn to the same degree. How is Greece less stubborn or to blame than FYROM? After all, they are the ones instituting the boycott.

Mate, one thing is sure - you should avoid any profession related to conflict resolution

[noemon]

As I said, all that could be spelled out in a good old international treaty making clear that they don't have any territorial claims.

Germany signed Versailles, papers mean nothing. Abandoning the name automatically puts a stop to any territorial and nationalistic narrative.

Why do you support the existence of nationalistic narratives? When you know that the same narrative has already been utilized twice for these irredentist purposes?

You are trying to construct rationalizations for absolutely irrational behaviour, not me.

You have the audacity to openly support an irredentist and nationalistic narrative, while at the same insutling those that are against such clear-cut concepts whose utility is obvious and apparent.

Even if that was the case, I can't see how the "correct" historic record is worth strangling countries if the potential repercussions such a record could have could be settled in a treaty.

Aside from the fact, that I have no reason to give any shit how much they struggle, you are forgetting the most obvious thing. They can unstrangle themselves on their own in a second. Its not like we are occupying them.

They can untangle themselves from somewhere that they put themselves into within a day.

That doesn't make any sense. Both countries are being stubborn to the same degree. How is Greece less stubborn or to blame than FYROM? After all, they are the ones instituting the boycott.

You are the one who doesnt make any sense. And who is completely and utterly ignorant. First of all Greece is much less stubborn, even though stubborness is irrelevant on to who is right and wrong.

a) Greece is less stubborn because the Greek position has backed down from "No Macedonia in their name" to "Add a prefix and keep it".
b) Greece is correct in suporting "No Macedonia in the name" even. Because this name by default implies historical, ethnic, and territorial ambition. Those who support irredentism support FYROM, those who support good neighborly relations based on mutual respect, support Greece.

Instituting political boycott does not make one guilty just because, nor does it make the other one victim. Unless you are still in the knidergarten, so save us from knee-jerk rationalizations. Do you support irredentism?

[Aekos]

Do you support irredentism?

I support Serbian, Greek and Russian irredentism

[Dave]

I support American irredentism.

[Order]

Germany signed Versailles, papers mean nothing. Abandoning the name automatically puts a stop to any territorial and nationalistic narrative.

That is completely illusionary. They could simply construct a new myth around the stolen part of the homeland the Greeks so brazenly
renamed. Similarly, they could just accept it despite the name. I am the last one to doubt that words and identities can have power but this is just a ridiculous exaggeration.

Why do you support the existence of nationalistic narratives? When you know that the same narrative has already been utilized twice for these irredentist purposes?

Because I want both countries to happily cooperate to make each other's life better in EU and NATO.

Aside from the fact, that I have no reason to give any shit how much they struggle, you are forgetting the most obvious thing.

Yeah, I think human beings are overrated too. You should join parties with Dave.

They can untangle themselves from somewhere that they put themselves into within a day.

Or Greece could untangle them. It requires quite an amount of fantasy to imagine how Macedonia once member of EU and NATO and after an international treaty will start making territorial claims and try to enforce them.

First of all Greece is much less stubborn, even though stubborness is irrelevant on to who is right and wrong.

Actually it is not. If Greece boycotted Macedonia because a Macedonian boy threw an apple across their border at a Greek boy's head, what a blatant violation of their sovereignty, it would of course be pathetic stubbornness if Greece would boycott Macedonia as long as they apologise for the boy's deeds. Behaving like an ass can actually undermine a legitimate position. This conflict could enter the dictionary as the new definition of petty.

Instituting political boycott does not make one guilty just because, nor does it make the other one victim. Unless you are still in the knidergarten, so save us from knee-jerk rationalizations. Do you support irredentism?

Actually my comments are neither knee-jerk nor rationalizations. Before you insult people you should at least choose the proper words.
Do I support irredentism? Not generally. In the case of Greek Macedonia I don't.

[noemon]

That is completely illusionary. They could simply construct a new myth around the stolen part of the homeland the Greeks so brazenly
renamed. Similarly, they could just accept it despite the name. I am the last one to doubt that words and identities can have power but this is just a ridiculous exaggeration.

I see your words, but I dont see any content. Whether you see it illusionary and an exaggeration is irrelevant. Fact is the name Macedonia has already acted as a trojan horse for occupation, TWICE. You can stick your head in the ground as much as you like to evade this simple fact which renders your knee-jerk rationalizations as redundant, it wont change a thing. Fact is fact and your rationalizations redundant.

Because I want both countries to happily cooperate to make each other's life better in EU and NATO

The ball is in their court. We have fixed our position out of goodwill, they have done nothing. You are playing the wrong instrument.

Or Greece could untangle them. It requires quite an amount of fantasy to imagine how Macedonia once member of EU and NATO and after an international treaty will start making territorial claims and try to enforce them.

Irrelevant, once a member FYROM will cement itself as a state, nation, and ethnos. The ethnic mythology that will cement during the process cannot be "Macedonism". Because this ideology will cement itself as well and that has the propensity to re-appear at later dates.

Before FYROM becomes a full and stable member of the international community, it will first abandon "Macedonism" as a state ideology. Asking that much when you also have the legal right through treaty to enforce it is not petty at all, petty would be turning your back and saying "Fuck it".

Actually it is not. If Greece boycotted Macedonia because a Macedonian boy threw an apple across their border at a Greek boy's head, what a blatant violation of their sovereignty, it would of course be pathetic stubbornness if Greece would boycott Macedonia as long as they apologise for the boy's deeds. Behaving like an ass can actually undermine a legitimate position. This conflict could enter the dictionary as the new definition of petty.

First of all wtf? Are you on about? Greece and FYROM have signed a treaty which postulates that FYROM cannot use the name "Macedonia" to enter any international organization. And Greece utilizes that treaty. Aside from that, Greece sends foreign aid to FYROM.

Second, we are far less stubborn than them, since we have changed our position towards their demands. They have done nothing.

Your knee-jerking is getting greater and greater by the post.

In the case of Greek Macedonia I don't.

Then you are standing at the wrong side of the fence.

[Order]

I see your words, but I dont see any content. Whether you see it illusionary and an exaggeration is irrelevant. Fact is the name Macedonia has already acted as a trojan horse for occupation, TWICE. You can stick your head in the ground as much as you like to evade this simple fact which renders your knee-jerk rationalizations as redundant, it wont change a thing. Fact is fact and your rationalizations redundant.

I don't have anything to add to my last statement. You can believe as much as you want in your silly word game, it remains just that, silly.

Irrelevant, once a member FYROM will cement itself as a state, nation, and ethnos. The ethnic mythology that will cement during the process cannot be "Macedonism". Because this ideology will cement itself as well and that has the propensity to re-appear at later dates.

Before FYROM becomes a full and stable member of the international community, it will first abandon "Macedonism" as a state ideology. Asking that much when you also have the legal right through treaty to enforce it is not petty at all, petty would be turning your back and saying "Fuck it".

Turning around and say: "Ah, whatever" would be the only mature reaction. And by the way, even if they abandon the name, they can still have Macedonism as their state ideology, it wouldn't solve your problem (if there was one, that is). But I agree with you that the Macedonians are behaving similarly stupidly.

First of all wtf? Are you on about? Greece and FYROM have signed a treaty which postulates that FYROM cannot use the name "Macedonia" to enter any international organization. And Greece utilizes that treaty. Aside from that, Greece sends foreign aid to FYROM.

I haven't said that what the Greeks are doing is illegal.

Second, we are far less stubborn than them, since we have changed our position towards their demands. They have done nothing.

Great, so Greece is a little bit less pathetic.

Then you are standing at the wrong side of the fence.

Because I am against irredentism in this case? Now that is odd, I thought you would agree.

Your knee-jerking is getting greater and greater by the post.

So is your misuse of the term.

[noemon]

Obviously there is no argument for me to address maybe except:

And by the way, even if they abandon the name, they can still have Macedonism as their state ideology, it wouldn't solve your problem (if there was one, that is).

It is difficult talking to people that are fundamentally unaware and willfully ignorant of the basics. "Macedonism" is embodied and manifested in the name.

[Corporatios]

Great, so Greece is a little bit less pathetic.

The only pathetic is your ridiculous solution proposal. Showing your bias and insulting a nation won't erase the stupidity of your first entry.

[Order]

It is difficult talking to people that are fundamentally unaware and willfully ignorant of the basics. "Macedonism" is embodied and manifested in the name.

So if they can't call it Macedonia, that will keep them from putting up statues of Alexander the Great and claiming Greek Macedonia as the root of their identity.

The only pathetic is your ridiculous solution proposal. Showing your bias and insulting a nation won't erase the stupidity of your first entry.

Less insults, more arguments and people will start talking to you.

[Dave]

Greece should just invade FYRO"M" and end this shit

[Aekos]

So if they can't call it Macedonia, that will keep them from putting up statues of Alexander the Great and claiming Greek Macedonia as the root of their identity.

Hopefully said statues will be destroyed by Greeks one time or another

Less insults, more arguments and people will start talking to you.

noemon and corporatios are not the same person

[Order]

noemon and corporatios are not the same person

Fixed.

Hopefully said statues will be destroyed by Greeks one time or another

Is somebody hoping for war here?

[Aekos]

Is somebody hoping for war here?

Greece would totally wipe the floor with FYROM. It would last like a day.

[Order]

Greece would totally wipe the floor with FYROM. It would last like a day.

No doubt about it. It just seems that Greece has spent too much time close to the Balkan... Behavioural patterns align.