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#14547894
I don't even know why this argument is continuing to happen. Surely western liberals should be allowed to believe and say whatever they want to say in endorsement of their own position.

Liberals are simply offering an environment in which all points of view can be openly contested in the political sphere. This is pluralism. Some people think that Bandera was a great person. Some people also think that Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo were fantastic too.

Others may disagree. Isn't is very dangerous when you guys start saying that people should be banned from participating in politics just because of where they would have stood if this was 1942? I stand with liberals on the Ukraine issue from start to finish, they alone have shown a commitment to openness that has been completely unaffected by events on the ground. That's commitment, and I think that's commendable.

The Russians are trying to limit the legitimate political expressions of peoples who live in territories near Russia. It should be obvious that Russia's behaviour is not acceptable.
#14547901
Rugoz wrote:Meanwhile 5 supporters from ex-president Yanukovych have been killed in Ukraine, I'm surprised none of the Russia-lovers here is posting that.

Yanukovych's son is also dead, although that happend in the East of Russia (drowned in a lake) so it's probably unrelated.

5 supporters and Yanukovych's son? LOL.

3 shots in last 3 days.

13.04 Sergei Sukhobok, a journalist and founder of two web newspapers. Details are unknown.
15.04 Oleg Kalashnikov, a former parliamentarian from Yanukovych's party, one of organizers of 'Antimaidan'. Shot at front of his house.
16.04 Oles Buzina, a journalist who supported 'Antimaidan'. Shot at front of his house.
Last edited by Ganeshas Rat on 16 Apr 2015 18:11, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Frollein
#14547902
Rei Murasame wrote:I don't even know why this argument is continuing to happen. Surely western liberals should be allowed to believe and say whatever they want to say in endorsement of their own position.

Liberals are simply offering an environment in which all points of view can be openly contested in the political sphere. This is pluralism. Some people think that Bandera was a great person. Some people also think that Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo were fantastic too.

Others may disagree. Isn't is very dangerous when you guys start saying that people should be banned from participating in politics just because of where they would have stood if this was 1942? I stand with liberals on the Ukraine issue from start to finish, they alone have shown a commitment to openness that has been completely unaffected by events on the ground. That's commitment, and I think that's commendable.

The Russians are trying to limit the legitimate political expressions of peoples who live in territories near Russia. It should be obvious that Russia's behaviour is not acceptable.
Did you actually type that with a straight face? I would have expected some typos when tears of laughter made it difficult to see the keyboard.
#14547905
Ganeshas Rat wrote:5 supporters and Yanukovych's son? LOL.

3 shots in last 3 days.

Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that any of this is caused by political assassination? For all we know, Yanukovich's son tripped and slipped into the lake and lost his life as a result. And furthermore, the journalists and parliamentarians may have been killed by the Russian mafia, or killed by the FSB in false flag operations, or may have even killed themselves with guns on purpose or even by accident.

There's no way to ever really know.

Frollein wrote::eh: Did you actually type that with a straight face? I would have expected some typos when tears of laughter made it difficult to see the keyboard.

My face was straight, but my eyes alone were filled with a special kind of joy. Usually, things are really difficult, but these days it's just like I don't even have to worry about anything from liberals when it comes to the narrative about Russia.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 16 Apr 2015 18:20, edited 1 time in total.
By Decky
#14547909
Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that any of this is caused by political assassination? For all we know, Yanukovich's son tripped and slipped into the lake and lost his life as a result. And furthermore, the journalists and parliamentarians may have been killed by the Russian mafia, or killed by the FSB in false flag operations, or may have even killed themselves with guns on purpose or even by accident.


When did you grow a sense of humour?
User avatar
By Frollein
#14547911
Rei Murasame wrote:Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that any of this is caused by political assassination?
No more proof than with Nemzov, I guess, and yet everyone was so sure that it was a political assassination...
#14547915
Decky wrote:When did you grow a sense of humour?

When things started going kind of well. Like, quite seriously, if someone is actually killing these people, then I would say that it is awesome. If it's a CIA operation of some sort then I would say that is great, because it would very clean and it would be why no one would ever be able to prove anything ever.

It's impossible to know for sure. This could even be a dispute with loan-sharks that went bad and got violent.

Frollein wrote:No more proof than with Nemzov, I guess, and yet everyone was so sure that it was a political assassination...

Everyone was sure. Except the Russians, they were not sure. The Russians also claim that Litvinenko 'poisoned himself by accident', so I don't see how my claim is any more outlandish than that. My sense of humour still hasn't been able to equal that of Russia or the pro-Russian posters here.
By Conscript
#14547930
I don't know if I'm being trolled, or all the support for NATO has diseased your mind, oh well.

Rei Murasame wrote:Surely western liberals should be allowed to believe and say whatever they want to say in endorsement of their own position.


Sure, but they don't need to try to fool us with appeals to democracy and pluralism for their enemies at the same time, claiming a sort of condescending 'tolerance' while they simultaneously fight you with everything they have. You yourself concede these states (like all modern ones) are dictatorships of the haute-bourgeoisie, and surely that they certainly don't let the more idealist side of liberal political thought get in the way of real interests.

Liberals are simply offering an environment in which all points of view can be openly contested in the political sphere. This is pluralism.


It also doesn't really exist. Even today, in Ukraine, the new law banning nazi and communist propaganda and such disproportionately affects the latter (whereas its restricted to the NSDAP for the former). Everything remotely red (Stalinist or not) dies while fascists are allowed to serve as neoliberal shock troops in the paramilitaries.

No liberal state has ever allowed pluralism and notions of tolerance let a movement opposed to the state seriously challenge it, or legislate values contrary to its constitution.

The Russians are trying to limit the legitimate political expressions of peoples who live in territories near Russia. It should be obvious that Russia's behaviour is not acceptable.


Are you trolling, Rei? You're a nazi.

The only difference in this regard is that the West meddles in territories not near itself. In terms of imperialists, Russia is just a less privileged one, and also relies on hard power and tanks which doesn't look as nice. That's about it.

The crux of the issue is liberal-democrats don't want to be equated with other imperialists. Nothing more. It's just yet another form of exceptionalism we see coming from them, and that's why this argument keeps coming up, because it permeates all aspects of the debate over Ukraine and elsewhere. Just look at Rugoz and his arguments of 'Ukraine gets to voluntarily decide what it wants!' As if the West applies these morals to itself and pretends countries on the other side of the world, let alone around it, operate in a vacuum.
#14547932
Conscript wrote:I don't know if I'm being trolled, or all the support for NATO has diseased your mind, oh well.

I support NATO whenever it's doing what I want it to do. That's why I don't quit the UK.

Conscript wrote:Sure, but they don't need to try to fool us with appeals to democracy and pluralism for their enemies at the same time, claiming a sort of condescending 'tolerance' while they simultaneously fight you with everything they have. You yourself concede these states (like all modern ones) are dictatorships of the haute-bourgeoisie, and surely that they certainly don't let the more idealist side of liberal political thought get in the way of real interests.

Yes, that is obvious.

Conscript wrote:It also doesn't really exist. Even today, in Ukraine, the new law banning nazi and communist propaganda and such disproportionately affects the latter (whereas its restricted to the NSDAP for the former). Everything remotely red (Stalinist or not) dies while fascists are allowed to serve as neoliberal shock troops in the paramilitaries.

This is also obvious, and obviously that is why I have been laughing up my sleeve while writing these posts. Everyone else seems to have found it fun, why aren't you also enjoying it?

Conscript wrote:The only difference in this regard is that the West meddles in territories not near itself. In terms of imperialists, Russia is just a less privileged one, and also relies on hard power and tanks which doesn't look as nice. That's about it.

Another key difference that is to be remembered is that Russians are in Russia. There is nothing which should make me want to support an underdog if I also happen to hate and despise that underdog. People have an old saying that goes "Don't kick a dog while it's down". But my view on life is that when a dog is down, that's the best time to gang up on it and keep kicking it.

At the end of the day, obviously I don't really care how liberals rationalise it to themselves, it's all a word-game in my view anyway (see my post at the top of this page for example of how that game looks). I just want to know whether they are okay with wrecking Russia, and since the answer to that question is "yes", I'm sticking with western liberals. So long as the dog is down and is being kicked, I don't care how people rationalise the kicking of the dog.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 16 Apr 2015 19:07, edited 1 time in total.
By Conscript
#14547936
It's obvious to you and I, but not to the people raised on and unconsciously accepting of liberal dogma from birth, particularly the generation of young anti-soviet nationalists that agitate the situation in the East.

For as disgusting your politics are, it's a shame there aren't more people like you in power around the Atlantic. Shit would be a lot simpler, and not necessitate a whole philosophical debate like I have to have with someone like Rugoz. Oh well, such is life in the 21st century and the 'end of history', I guess.

I mean, liberals think they are the underdog and shouldn't appease 'Putler' Neville-style, or some garbage. That's how ridiculous this shit is.

Everyone else seems to have found it fun, why aren't you also enjoying it?


Seriously?
Last edited by Conscript on 16 Apr 2015 19:18, edited 2 times in total.
#14547938
Rei Murasame wrote:Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that any of this is caused by political assassination?

Of course I have no proofs death of Victor Yanukovich was an assassination. I even do not think that, only if Gods can assassinate as a karmic retribution.

Others are more obvious cases.
The chronology of the events:
26.01.15 Nikolay Sergienko, the substitute of CEO of "UkrZaliznitza", the state railroad company, was found shot from a hunting rifle in his apartments.
29.01.15 Alexey Kolesnik, the former governor of Kharkiv region was found hanged in his home.
25.02.15 Sergey Valter, the city mayor of Melitopol was found hanged.
26.02.15 Alexander Borduga, the former substitute of a police chief of Melitopol was found dead in his garage.
28.02.15 Mikhail Chechetov, the former president of Yanukovich's party was found defenestrated.
09.03.15 Stanislav Melnik, the former chairman was found shot from a hunting rifle in his apartments (Not a typo).
12.03.15 Alexander Peklushenko, the former governor of Zaporizhia was found shot in his house.

I can add another one. 27.08.14 Valentina Samsonenko, the chief of Fund of State Property of Ukraine from 2005 to 2008 was found shot from a hunting rifle in her house. She had a copy of privatization documents from State Archive. Those documents have never been found.

As you see, all those politicans were mostly in opposition to the current government, all (except Samonenko) died in the close time, all died because of similar reasons ('commiting the suicide'). All deaths were warmly met by the ruling men, especially from Dnepropetrovsk, where Igor Kolomoyskiy ruled (Zaporizhia where Melitopol is located was under control of Kolomoyskiy like Odessa and Kharkiv from summer of 2014). Well, I have no power to translate some spicy details but it must be very convincing by itself. I remind, the first kill on Ukraine was in March of 2014 when Ukrainian nationalist and terrorist (UNA-UNSO, fought in Chechnya) Alexander Muzichko shot himself (four bullets to heart) from a gun with the handcuffs on his hands. Now they admit he was shot by policemen of current minister of internal affairs Avakov 'while trying to escape'. The current mayor of Kharkiv Hennadiy Kernes, a rival of Avakov (public info) was shot from a sniper rifle 28 April 2014 and saved his life only by miracle and work of Israeli medics.

That's how the fascism works.
#14547941
Conscript wrote:It's obvious to you and I, but not to the people raised on and unconsciously accepting of liberal dogma from birth, particularly the generation of young anti-soviet nationalists that agitate the situation in the East.

For as disgusting your politics are, it's a shame there aren't more people like you in power around the Atlantic. Shit would be a lot simpler, and not necessitate a whole philosophical debate like I have to have with someone like Rugoz. Oh well, such is life in the 21st century and the 'end of history', I guess.

Well, on the issue of liberal dogma, yes, I agree with you that it's basically ridiculous. I don't understand how Rugoz is able to take his own rhetoric seriously, because I generally can't take any liberal rhetoric seriously at all.

Everything would actually be faster if they'd just say what they really mean. The west fights for its own interests, and other people sometimes go along for the ride to some limited extent.

Regarding my own support for NATO which some people seem to have held in doubt: Obviously I get really angry with NATO on a number of issues, but I have to continually update my preferences to match the situation on the ground in relation to the issues I care about, so basically the things I complained about in the past that NATO was doing, are now 'water under the bridge' because NATO has triggered a bunch of conjunctures that make it so that they have created a situation that I am amenable to again.

I won't get to see everything that I want to see from NATO. But if I can get some things that I want to see from NATO, then I'm okay with choosing the least-worst option. So I'm just continuing to support NATO's choices on this issue.

Conscript wrote:I mean, liberals think they are the underdog and shouldn't appease 'Putler' Neville-style, or some garbage. That's how ridiculous this shit is.

Pretty much. The comparison between Putin and Hitler doesn't even make any sense at all. I don't even know how liberals came up with that one, but I assume it was an inversion that they had to do, because had they ascribed Russian-ness to Putin, then they might have had to conclude that the Euroatlantic area is playing the geopolitical role of the British Empire, or Napoleonic France, or Nazi Europe.

And liberals don't like where that comparison ends up, so there is all this incomprehensible twisting and turning from them instead.

From my perspective, I see that Putin is Russian, and Russia is Russia. There is no one that Putin needs to be compared to, he is the Russian leader. That alone speaks for itself. I can dislike him without having to compare him to anything outside of Russia.

________

Ganeshas Rat wrote:Others are more obvious cases.

I agree that these all look like they could be assassinations. It's just that obviously no one will ever admit to it, because why would anyone on our side want to admit to these things if they don't have to be admitted to?
#14547943
Rei Murasame wrote:I agree that these all look like they could be assassinations. It's just that obviously no one will ever admit to it, because why would anyone on our side want to admit to these things if they don't have to be admitted to?

The most probable variant I see - the government of Ukraine won a ticket of the scapegoat. They will be removed, blamed of these crimes and punished by a clean next regime. That's why they kill and that's why they do not hide their traces. Somebody just told them there are no reasons to worry about.
#14547960
Rei Murasame wrote:And furthermore, the journalists and parliamentarians may have been killed by the Russian mafia, or killed by the FSB in false flag operations, or may have even killed themselves with guns on purpose or even by accident.
As far as I know, Yegov Gaidar was poisoned at the same time the Litvinenko was poisoned. However, Gaidar was smart, and, as soon as he was able to move, he escaped from Britain to Russia. He survived, Litvinenko - not.
By Conscript
#14547965
Rei Murasame wrote:Well, on the issue of liberal dogma, yes, I agree with you that it's basically ridiculous. I don't understand how Rugoz is able to take his own rhetoric seriously, because I generally can't take any liberal rhetoric seriously at all.

Everything would actually be faster if they'd just say what they really mean. The west fights for its own interests, and other people sometimes go along for the ride to some limited extent.


Yes! It's a shame, because the fact we are even having this discussion and seeing eye-to-eye right now is going to be used as evidence of how alike 'totalitarian' ideologies are. I guarantee it.

In reality, I think it's just down to knowing we are utter enemies and opposites, that there is nothing to say to each other, and that perhaps on the corpse of liberal-democracy will be a showdown between illiberal nationalists and proletarian internationalists, the final political battle.

But, until then, as two outside groups constantly likened by the winner in this 'end of history' because it's key to their enduring victory, we note the absurdities of liberalism. Does that mean fascism and communism are the same? Or just not liberal? I say the latter. There is no horseshoe, just a triangle.

Regarding my own support for NATO which some people seem to have held in doubt: Obviously I get really angry with NATO on a number of issues, but I have to continually update my preferences to match the situation on the ground in relation to the issues I care about, so basically the things I complained about in the past that NATO was doing, are now 'water under the bridge' because NATO has triggered a bunch of conjunctures that make it so that they have created a situation that I am amenable to again.

I won't get to see everything that I want to see from NATO. But if I can get some things that I want to see from NATO, then I'm okay with choosing the least-worst option. So I'm just continuing to support NATO's choices on this issue.


I understand. I don't know if you're saying this because you get teased by some here (including myself) for 'going neoliberal' or something, though. I don't mean it sincerely, you are obviously as illiberal as it freaking gets.

Pretty much. The comparison between Putin and Hitler doesn't even make any sense at all. I don't even know how liberals came up with that one, but I assume it was an inversion that they had to do, because had they ascribed Russian-ness to Putin, then they might have had to conclude that the Euroatlantic area is playing the geopolitical role of the British Empire, or Napoleonic France, or Nazi Europe.

And liberals don't like where that comparison ends up, so there is all this incomprehensible twisting and turning from them instead.


You hit the nail on the bloody head, especially the last sentences...and I can't help but notice in all of the modern 'clashes of civilizations' (including with Russia), the other civilization essentially views us this way, as playing that geopolitical role. I imagine being Japanese factors into your views here and permits some nuance we don't have, because our relationship to you and other non-Westerners is defined by these geopolitical roles no matter how much modern liberals try to change that.

Personally I don't actually view the Euroatlantic area as any of the three per se, more like an extension of the Entente and the Allies. But with Ukraine, that's changed a little towards something I thought was unthinkable, a liberal and fascist (not just nationalist, seriously brown) alliance. The US is, right now, connecting its cold war anti-communism with the Banderites' struggle, and it's disgusting. But for you, I imagine it just reinforces everything you have ever said on the matter.
Last edited by Conscript on 16 Apr 2015 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#14547968
Rei Murasame wrote:I don't understand how Rugoz is able to take his own rhetoric seriously, because I generally can't take any liberal rhetoric seriously at all.


Well we feel the same about each other then.

Conscript wrote:Shit would be a lot simpler, and not necessitate a whole philosophical debate like I have to have with someone like Rugoz.


Yeah things would be a lot simpler, but also shallow and meaningless.

Conscript wrote:I mean, liberals think they are the underdog and shouldn't appease 'Putler' Neville-style, or some garbage. That's how ridiculous this shit is.


Obviously liberals aren't the underdogs, doesn't mean we have to appease 'Putler'.

Ganeshas Rat wrote:The most probable variant I see - the government of Ukraine won a ticket of the scapegoat. They will be removed, blamed of these crimes and punished by a clean next regime. That's why they kill and that's why they do not hide their traces. Somebody just told them there are no reasons to worry about.


That makes little sense. What would be the "clean regime" that follows?

I mean obviously those are assassinations (people can also be forced to commit suicide). I think it's probably right-wing nationalists doing it, with parts of the government either not willing or incapable of finding the ones responsible.

It's curious that all this started in january this year.
#14547984
Rugoz wrote:That makes little sense. What would be the "clean regime" that follows?

The current moderate opposition.

Rugoz wrote:I think it's probably right-wing nationalists doing it, with parts of the government either not willing or incapable of finding the ones responsible.

Right-wing nationalists can regularly drop officials into a trash can and maybe even to kill someone. But regular assassinations masked as accidents? That is not called just 'right-wing nationalists', the name of it is Los Escuadrones de la Muerte or death squads, paramilitary organizations not able to exist without a state government's help and approve.

The ruling power covers the killers. For example, those who killed Sergey Sukhobok are found already. Those were two neighbors of Sukhobok who had drunk with him before the killing. The motive was a sharing of a bottle of vodka. That is what local police says.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#14548003
Ganeshas Rat wrote:The current moderate opposition.

The ruling power covers the killers. For example, those who killed Sergey Sukhobok are found already. Those were two neighbors of Sukhobok who had drunk with him before the killing. The motive was a sharing of a bottle of vodka. That is what local police says.


- Well there is no moderate opposition. The parties in power are for the most part not radicals politically (Poroshenko bloc etc.), nor are they new and if they are its just new names. The former party of regions isn't any more moderate than them.

- Source? The others from what I can tell were simply not or not sufficiently investigated, which can be considered covering up as well of course.
#14548016
Rugoz wrote:- Source? The others from what I can tell were simply not or not sufficiently investigated, which can be considered covering up as well of course.

RIA News Ukraine

RIA News Ukraine wrote:Журналист, один из соучредителей интернет-издания "Обком" Сергей Сухобок был убит в результате бытового конфликта, сообщает пресс-служба ГУ МВД по Киеву.

'A journalist, one of co-founders of web publication "Obkom", Sergey Sukhobok was killed in a homicide accident'. Press office of Main Department of Kiev's Police.
By Atlantis
#14548033
Rugoz wrote:I mean obviously those are assassinations (people can also be forced to commit suicide). I think it's probably right-wing nationalists doing it, with parts of the government either not willing or incapable of finding the ones responsible.

The problem is that the government is weak and increasingly depends on right wing militias for survival. Even in the fight against the separatists, the right wing militias were used as storm troops since the Ukrainian army wasn't that keen of fighting.

There are right wing militias, the private militias of the oligarchs, armed gangs and even jihadists which are able to prosper in the lawless space of an economically and politically failing Ukraine. Well, just the usual aftermath of Western interference ...
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