[Kaiserschmarrn]

The cost of transportation would cripple the entire European economy!

And the cost of shipping every last refugee out of Europe and guard the Mediterranean, or whatever it is you want, would cost what?

If repatriation of failed asylum claimants and people who have lost their temporary residence status is hardly enforced, why would you expect this scheme in particular to be successfully enforced?

Calais should give you an idea what you are up against. However, France is an excellent place to live with as high living standards as the UK, but the same cannot be said about many Eastern European countries. That's not to say that it's awful to live there, but overall being an accepted refugee in Britain, France or Germany is much better than in Eastern Europe.

I also hope you realise that coming out in favour of deporting large number of people against their will to a place where they do not want to go puts you in the far right extremist camp.

[Dave]

The cost of transportation would cripple the entire European economy!

And the cost of shipping every last refugee out of Europe and guard the Mediterranean, or whatever it is you want, would cost what?

This is the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

I'm an American, and in the United States 800 million passengers are served by our airports every year.

In Europe the figure is likely larger given that the EU has more people than America and Europeans are obsessed with vacation.

And this ignores lower cost forms of transportation.

Even if the cost were expensive, which it is not (freight costs in mature economies is 6-12% of GDP, and people use a lot less freight than goods), the long term costs of "refugees" are unfavorable owing to their poor level of "human capital" (leaving aside crime and terrorism issues).

The German psychologist Heiner Rindermann (same fellow behind the smart fraction theory) found that the average IQ of Syrian university graduates is 92, lower than the figure for German realschule graduates. While it may be that Syrians have IQ depression from inbreeding (even in urban Syria 28% percent of people practice cousin marriage) or even malnutrition, this is hardly something that should inspire confidence.

And most of the "refugees" are not necessarily even Syrians...

Guarding the Mediterranean would be very cheap indeed if you simply towed the boats home (better yet, sink them) and conducted a propaganda campaign on social media informing people that their prospects of settling in Europe are zero. Australia has done just that.

The only economic downside will be a short term drop in aggregate demand, which could easily be made up by fiscal policy.

If you object to this it means that you want Europe to be invaded.

I also hope you realise that coming out in favour of deporting large number of people against their will to a place where they do not want to go puts you in the far right extremist camp.

Israel did this successfully by deporting a bunch of random blacks to Uganda.

[unbalanced zealot]

And most of the "refugees" are not necessarily even Syrians...

Guarding the Mediterranean would be very cheap indeed if you simply towed the boats home (better yet, sink them) and conducted a propaganda campaign on social media informing people that their prospects of settling in Europe are zero. Australia has done just that.

It's true, Australia has a turn back and off shore detention policy that now has bi-partisan political support. This has resulted in a huge reduction in boat arrivals since its implementation. It's generally promoted as a disincentive for people to engage the people smuggling trade operated mainly out of Indonesia. But it also acts to assert some pressure on Indonesia to be proactive in trying to limit its own inflows. Actually, a huge amount of refugees that have Australia as an end-destination enter through KL airport, but Malaysia seems to allow this through indifference. Malaysia has long been a transit point, dating back to Indo-Chinese refugees, but also Rohingya, Karen, etc coming out of Burma. Australia has also experimented with special visa categories such as TPVs (Temporary Protection Visas) which are/were short term visas with no certainty attached.

I'm not going to post anything on the ethics associated with Europe's and Australia's refugee scenarios, but I will say from working in humanitarian immigration settlement, while not most as quoted, many refugee claims are either distorted or outright false and part of an economic game-plan, rather than based on genuine threats. It's common for an Afghan to actually be a Pakistani from Quetta, even one who has spent some time in Dubai before heading to KL. The costs of getting to Australia through a people smuggling network are pretty high ... but often this is tempered by sending one family member first with a plan for others to follow down the path after the initial person has citizenship.

The trouble with Australia's humanitarian visa immigration policies is that because of the politics of capturing votes from certain cohorts within various electorates (certain marginal seats especially) the media and political conversations tend to be completely polarized between 'all refugees are genuine and deserving' and 'all are not' ... when it's mostly likely somewhere in between.

The European scenario probably has similar dynamics in play.

[Harmattan]

What has happened in Sweden and Germany? Do you not see that it is precisely because of masses of idiots like you, that Sweden and Germany have a disproportionate number of refugees compared to other European countries? If there was more equal distribution of refugees in Europe via a refugee resettlement program, which (surprise) right wingers are against, Sweden and Germany would not have to carry this much of the burden.

You are free to take them in YOUR country. Not in mine.

The problem with refugees cannot be solved by burdening other European countries, but rather by being honest, allow each country to set up its own limit, then expel every one above this threshold to some Muslim country. Either one we pay, or some non-country like Libya where we will forcefully disembark them.

As soon as a migrant enter Europe or any other collaborating area, send it immediately to the country he wants. There, the police awaits him, and either his asylum demand is accepted according to the decided limits, either he is expelled. Set a 30 days threshold objective for this process, but migrants can be detained indefinitely until expulsion. You are free to propose this refugee to other countries in case someone else is ready to host him.

[unbalanced zealot]

The obvious question is why aren't affluent Muslim countries like Saudi and the Gulf States taking on any burden?

[Dave]

Because they're not cucked and act strictly in their own self-interest.

[unbalanced zealot]

As they do in their defense relationships with the US.

[night games]

Owsley wrote:
What has happened in Sweden and Germany? Do you not see that it is precisely because of masses of idiots like you, that Sweden and Germany have a disproportionate number of refugees compared to other European countries? If there was more equal distribution of refugees in Europe via a refugee resettlement program, which (surprise) right wingers are against, Sweden and Germany would not have to carry this much of the burden.

You read it and become desperate, the EU indoctrination went so well.

[Political Interest]

The obvious question is why aren't affluent Muslim countries like Saudi and the Gulf States taking on any burden?

It is very easy for these nations. They are not bound by Western liberal conventions and so can get away with doing nothing. No one will really expect a country like Saudi Arabia or Qatar to act in a humanitarian way. European countries are expected to behave to a certain standard because they are liberal, pluralistic and progressive societies.

It is a frustrating double standard but that is unfortunately how most of the world perceives Europe. It is also how Europe perceives itself. When you point out that these Gulf states are not accepting any refugees the average European centrist liberal will express their pride at not being like such "backward" and "authoritarian" countries.

[night games]

It is a frustrating double standard but that is unfortunately how most of the world perceives Europe. It is also how Europe perceives itself. When you point out that these Gulf states are not accepting any refugees the average European centrist liberal will express their pride at not being like such "backward" and "authoritarian" countries.

America also doesn't take any and she's the leader of the free world. The difference is historical EU's Arab policy which become ideology and brain wash.

[layman]

And the cost of shipping every last refugee out of Europe and guard the Mediterranean, or whatever it is you want, would cost what?

No one talked about it being crippling. We are a rich continent after all. That isn't the point though. THe point is that paying to constantly transport these people to the allocated country as they move to where they want to is total madness. You didn't even suggest sanctions for when they keep doing it?

As for defending our border, it is the most basic thing a government is responsible for. Ending this basic measure is causally extremely radical and used o be the preserve of extremists and anarchists.

but these appear to be the times we are living in when politically moderate people suggest it like it is normal or something

[Owsley]

You are free to take them in YOUR country. Not in mine.

This I do respect, as I am against any kind of supranational law or union, including the EU. Every country would have to agree in an intergovernmental agreement.

The problem with refugees cannot be solved by burdening other European countries, but rather by being honest, allow each country to set up its own limit, then expel every one above this threshold to some Muslim country. Either one we pay, or some non-country like Libya where we will forcefully disembark them.

You would need an agreement with these countries and, as we know, the cost of transportation would be through the roof, so high that no one would be prepared. In all seriousness I am not all that opposed to something like that, provided the refugee camps in these countries, like Jordan and Lebanon, are actually funded sufficiently. In 2015 the budget for the UN refugee camps were cut by 10%, which very likely exacerbated the flow of asylum seekers to Europe.

[Harmattan]

You would need an agreement with these countries

I would prefer it, yes. But if I could not get a deal with one of them, I would make one by force. We have might and power, and ending the Islamic colonization is an excellent reason to use them.


As for the daunting transportation costs, maybe Saudi Arabia can grant us a loan?

[Owsley]

I would prefer it, yes. But if I could not get a deal with one of them, I would make one by force. We have might and power, and ending the Islamic colonization is an excellent reason to use them.

How do you make an agreement by force? An intergovernmental agreement implies agreement between countries. Jordan and Lebanon are no more under obligation to take refugees than the any European country, in fact one could easily argue they are less obliged since they have not signed the 1951 Refugee Convention.

'Islamic colonization' is an extremely loaded phrase and it obviously is not accurate either, since there is no outside central system of power that is dominating Europe and its people. Seriously, and I mean this sincerely, instead of using all these memes like 'Islamic colonization', 'rapefugees', 'Eurabia' and so on, can we not have an honest conversation? In another conversation on this thread someone simply refused to accept numbers and statistics. There is no way one can have a political discussion with another individual, when the other individual relies on conspiracy theories.

As for the daunting transportation costs, maybe Saudi Arabia can grant us a loan?

It was meant as a joke. I am very skeptical about the notion that such a large scale agreement would hinge on transportation costs.

[Harmattan]

How do you make an agreement by force?

Seriously? Let's see: trade embargoes, IMF loans, diplomatic isolation, financial and military support to political opponents, or we could just barge in their territorial seas with a war fleet and disembark immigrants. We have countless means at our disposal.

'Islamic colonization' is an extremely loaded phrase and it obviously is not accurate either

One third of high schoolers in the region of Paris are Muslims! And this prefigures the future overall demography in this region. And they will be 40-45% by 2050 if we do nothing. And similar situations are observed in the regions of our other largest cities. Our wealth and political centers are already falling. How do you call this?

The national figures look fine because of the countryside and the little to medium cities, and the large cities themselves look fine because of social segregation. But the suburbs around the latter are meshed by countless Muslim areas, there will be more and more of them, and in a few decades the phenomenon will have conquered the centers. At this rate and in all seriousness I may see Paris become a Muslim-majority city in my lifetime.

And who said that a colonization involves an outside central power or a coordinated action? So seriously, and I mean this sincerely, it is more than due time that we face reality, admit that we do not want that, and do what it takes to halt this while we still can.

in fact one could easily argue they are less obliged since they have not signed the 1951 Refugee Convention.

Of course and this is why we have to screw it: there will be too much refugees in the future because of global warming and their demography. We will screw it anyway, the sooner the better. This has probably happened in some European countries I guess. Regrettably we also have to screw the Human Rights convention, or at least amend it, since the ECHR and EUCJ use it to impose us familial immigration.

And, yes, it's fine. We have the right to choose to not submit to Islam. This is more important than any text and this will actually protect the progressiveness that Islam has currently removed from the places it occupies in our countries.

It was meant as a joke. I am very skeptical about the notion that such a large scale agreement would hinge on transportation costs.

Of course and so was my answer.

[Owsley]

Seriously? Let's see: trade embargoes, diplomatic isolation, financial and military support to political opponents, or we could just barge in their territorial seas with a war fleet and disembark immigrants. We have countless means at our disposal.

You want to play dice with Jordanian security? You do realize that Jordan has either the highest or second highest number of foreign fighters for ISIS? The founder of ISIS, Al-Zaqarwi, came from Jordan. Youth unemployment in Jordan is about 30% and extremism has been growing there for years already. The price of a Kalashnikov rifle has dropped significantly in recent years. What you want to do is a recipe for disaster.

How do you call this?

I don't know, but it's not called colonization.

[Harmattan]

I was not thinking of Jordan but anyway we WILL suffer from terrorism if we fight the presence of Islam in France. And this is fine! They will kill a few thousands or tens of thousands of us over one or two decades, so what? This is a cheap price to pay to prevent our larger cities and the heart of our country to become Muslim. You cannot choose your fate if you are not ready to fight for it.

If your plan is to submit because you are scared of a few terrorists, then you deserve to become Muslim anyway.

[Owsley]

I didn't mention Jordan but anyway we WILL suffer from terrorism if we fight the presence of Islam in France. But this is fine! They will kill a few thousands of us over many years, so what? This is a cheap price to pay to prevent our larger cities and the heart of our country to become Muslim.

No, you did not even try to mention a country Europe could make this deal with, except your plan of "forcefully disembarking more than a million refugees into Libya", which might be an even bigger disaster. Why don't you just list some countries you think Europe could feasibly do a deal of this nature with? Maybe you realize that it is a pipe dream yourself.

If your plan is to submit because you are scared of a few terrorists, then you deserve to become Muslim anyway.

I "deserve to become Muslim"? Whaaaaat?

[Harmattan]

I would attempt to make a deal with every poor country on this planet, offering them money to welcome immigrants we cannot deport to their home countries. If I cannot reach the needed capacity, then I would use the measures I enumerated to force one of them, and Libya could be this one.

And, trust me, putting them in Libya could never be worse than putting them in my country. That being said I am inclined to welcome up to 10k refugees a year. Preferably non-Muslims.

[Political Interest]

America also doesn't take any and she's the leader of the free world. The difference is historical EU's Arab policy which become ideology and brain wash.

The United States does not take any yet it promotes liberal ideology and concepts that enforce this paradigm.

The American elite and Saudi oil barons create these crises in the third world and then it is Europe that has to pay the price.

Overthrowing Bashar Assad is not in the interest of anyone in Europe or the US. Assad is protecting the Christians and other minorities there. In doing this Assad is ironically enough fighting for Syrian multiculturalism, yet the cosmopolitan and rootless liberals who sit in Washington, London, Paris and Berlin will not stop until that country is submerged into Wahabi barbarism. Should Assad's government fall the result will be genocide.

The refugees are nothing but a product of misguided foreign policies that do not serve the interests of any European nation but rather the interests of Trans-Atlantic plutocrats. Islamophobia is misguided and shortsighted. It does not address the real problem but instead places blame on the Muslim victims of these reckless imperialist adventures.